From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Qiantan Hong Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Question collaborative editing - Wikipedia reference Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 15:33:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83eemji6e8.fsf@gnu.org> <20201001141144.GO4797@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201001160136.chwmpollk4d3qc2e@Ergus> <20201004175447.GG15516@protected.rcdrun.com> <87362tvnil.fsf@gmail.com> <20201004194815.GH15516@protected.rcdrun.com> <11EB917D-3276-4D34-8DCD-2336E8062950@mit.edu> <20201005040245.GJ15516@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201005084441.GB4453@protected.rcdrun.com> <87zh50lhda.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pn5vgqsk.fsf@red-bean.com> <79924DB1-2613-4AF6-982C-39157CF3ED9B@mit.edu> <8C2D2AED-0AA8-48AC-ADB2-826177141F2F@gmail.com> <40B06E9F-A6D6-4F9B-8E2B-7DC55D16D0F7@mit.edu> <18458910-E6A1-4867-9936-FFA50E3E72D1@gmail.com> <4AB5904E-A646-4A17-B78C-B4E0271E28B4@mit.edu> <87imbjx0bm.fsf@tanaka.verona.se> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8DA4CEB8-1EFA-4401-8541-657C47336C6A"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15945"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Yuan Fu , Fermin , Jean Louis , Caio Henrique , Ergus , "joakim@verona.se" , Noam Postavsky , Karl Fogel , Stefan Monnier , Eli Zaretskii , Emacs developers To: Joe Corneli Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 09 17:35:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kQuQ8-0003xi-EZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 09 Oct 2020 17:35:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54694 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQuQ7-0002QP-Eo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 09 Oct 2020 11:34:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53456) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQuPQ-00020A-Li for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 09 Oct 2020 11:34:16 -0400 Original-Received: from outgoing-exchange-5.mit.edu ([18.9.28.59]:44540) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQuPO-0006Wf-Kp; Fri, 09 Oct 2020 11:34:16 -0400 Original-Received: from w92exedge3.exchange.mit.edu (W92EXEDGE3.EXCHANGE.MIT.EDU [18.7.73.15]) by outgoing-exchange-5.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id 099FXvKm024640; Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:34:05 -0400 Original-Received: from w92expo16.exchange.mit.edu (18.7.74.70) by w92exedge3.exchange.mit.edu (18.7.73.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1293.2; Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:32:56 -0400 Original-Received: from oc11expo16.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.4.47) by w92expo16.exchange.mit.edu (18.7.74.70) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:33:50 -0400 Original-Received: from oc11expo16.exchange.mit.edu ([18.9.4.47]) by oc11expo16.exchange.mit.edu ([18.9.4.47]) with mapi id 15.00.1365.000; Fri, 9 Oct 2020 11:33:50 -0400 Thread-Topic: Question collaborative editing - Wikipedia reference Thread-Index: AQHWnhdR4LjU6k9HIUyZcJcFcadSFqmPiGSAgAAhpoA= In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [18.18.245.17] Received-SPF: pass client-ip=18.9.28.59; envelope-from=qhong@mit.edu; helo=outgoing-exchange-5.mit.edu X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/10/09 11:34:12 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Windows 7 (Websense crawler) X-Spam_score_int: -8 X-Spam_score: -0.9 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.9 / 5.0 requ) BANG_GUAR=1, BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257266 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_8DA4CEB8-1EFA-4401-8541-657C47336C6A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >=20 > All this leads to some possible feature requests for crdt. >=20 > (1) Would it make sense for a future version of crdt.el to also manage = a list of files (like Projectile or Gobby?). =20 > (2) Would it make sense for a future version of crdt.el to sync not = just buffers... but also commands and windows (like lockstep?) >=20 Yes, I think both make perfect sense.=20 For 1, if it=E2=80=99s to be implemented separately I=E2=80=99ll have to = think about the right model. One end of the spectrum is to have a built-in file manager =E2=80=94 the = other end is to just provide some command like M-x crdt-goto-this-buffer to allow = taking a CRDT session to the buffer with another file. I personally thought more about 2, and I concluded that supporting = arbitrary command in general is almost impossible (given that we want to apply command in = real time, and eventual consistency). When one site invoke a command X that depends on = a chunk of text,=20 some other site might mutate the text at the same time, or invoking some = command that interfere with X =E2=80=94 and without any knowledge of how the command = works it=E2=80=99s impossible to solve this general problem. However, I do think it=E2=80=99s possible to make other Emacs packages = realtime-collaboration-complaint with relatively little effort if I provide the right infrastructure. = Emacs applications are in general built around buffer, and by just syncing buffer text, text properties, = markers and overlays using CRDT, those without using any variables will work automatically =E2=80=94 with = eventual consistency guarantee! Then I might provide some distributed version of DEFVARs for = buffer-local-varaibles =E2=80=94 def-crdt-counter etc, or some non-realtime def-server-var =E2=80=94 with = a few annotation a single-Emacs package should be able to be adapted to collaborative use. I=E2=80=99m very excited by this idea, I might call it =E2=80=9CEmacs as = a distributed (or collaborative) OS=E2=80=9D.= --Apple-Mail=_8DA4CEB8-1EFA-4401-8541-657C47336C6A Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCA70w ggO5MIIDIqADAgECAhAaql39NsO1qLVjkS2hl517MA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMGwxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRYwFAYDVQQIEw1NYXNzYWNodXNldHRzMS4wLAYDVQQKEyVNYXNzYWNodXNldHRzIEluc3Rp dHV0ZSBvZiBUZWNobm9sb2d5MRUwEwYDVQQLEwxDbGllbnQgQ0EgdjEwHhcNMjAwODAzMDEyNDIz WhcNMjEwODAxMDEyNDIzWjCBoTELMAkGA1UEBhMCVVMxFjAUBgNVBAgTDU1hc3NhY2h1c2V0dHMx LjAsBgNVBAoTJU1hc3NhY2h1c2V0dHMgSW5zdGl0dXRlIG9mIFRlY2hub2xvZ3kxFTATBgNVBAsT DENsaWVudCBDQSB2MTEVMBMGA1UEAxMMUWlhbnRhbiBIb25nMRwwGgYJKoZIhvcNAQkBFg1xaG9u Z0BNSVQuRURVMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEAylUlEQdK4BSXKzoGh6As CKN/TpLmC0kjhPdxUKMj1/86Xl6GDCla4h95uISDOWVAKdu3cIlA8m9zRLT2jNEIkt1DVpXP6c9h y8RRyfJm0qlrvr6tsHi5AmO4Li6s2dEGaTxbakPL6vEn7ZYr86t5orq56nubki77Z8ZvRv9/fWdF bF/YBNGDayLNk0NbXIEQdCHiz1l+bxfw+GHHRmdOge3MKWSg463+GGMdxtLQ61AbtR2vm47FIJBt c0X6ptcInWUg4Nf/9vSNGl6KvREvfbEWKCT6TfL5ncIFlitf6ZWKue2PZ4ULFfIQ3/7EsEk03xxr S7sTOy7e2dbPboe/WwIDAQABo4GhMIGeMAkGA1UdEwQCMAAwEQYJYIZIAYb4QgEBBAQDAgWgMB0G A1UdJQQWMBQGCCsGAQUFBwMEBggrBgEFBQcDAjALBgNVHQ8EBAMCBeAwHQYDVR0OBBYEFDeb9Jlj XSm+y0CD872IhzRDIGv1MDMGA1UdHwQsMCowKKAmoCSGImh0dHA6Ly9jYS5taXQuZWR1L2NhL21p dGNsaWVudC5jcmwwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQADgYEApBTx4tBbD5rQ+bNGd/Z3OBV07qFsm5QHNg0+ 6lxJ3j7q5zMMq35o6y5cBIhcFG6t+MFqJIdERZ3EprDturyqozQsIBMHFnqh+iZcMg0uQyssEqKZ hrzIdw8GuY4Z6jNewdGy5mwwG9yjpEbzWWgdofSM5rnezZz7EvCQu9ilt1sxggNDMIIDPwIBATCB gDBsMQswCQYDVQQGEwJVUzEWMBQGA1UECBMNTWFzc2FjaHVzZXR0czEuMCwGA1UEChMlTWFzc2Fj aHVzZXR0cyBJbnN0aXR1dGUgb2YgVGVjaG5vbG9neTEVMBMGA1UECxMMQ2xpZW50IENBIHYxAhAa ql39NsO1qLVjkS2hl517MA0GCWCGSAFlAwQCAQUAoIIBkzAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcN AQcBMBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJBTEPFw0yMDEwMDkxNTMzNTBaMC8GCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEiBCDw4CBOErDw 0XVQVRwPLy488Hx/Duc5rDEyao32ekPTUTCBkQYJKwYBBAGCNxAEMYGDMIGAMGwxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRYwFAYDVQQIEw1NYXNzYWNodXNldHRzMS4wLAYDVQQKEyVNYXNzYWNodXNldHRzIEluc3Rp dHV0ZSBvZiBUZWNobm9sb2d5MRUwEwYDVQQLEwxDbGllbnQgQ0EgdjECEBqqXf02w7WotWORLaGX nXswgZMGCyqGSIb3DQEJEAILMYGDoIGAMGwxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRYwFAYDVQQIEw1NYXNzYWNo dXNldHRzMS4wLAYDVQQKEyVNYXNzYWNodXNldHRzIEluc3RpdHV0ZSBvZiBUZWNobm9sb2d5MRUw EwYDVQQLEwxDbGllbnQgQ0EgdjECEBqqXf02w7WotWORLaGXnXswDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQAEggEA pih/rQNqwxplQvOTC0LpOng3gevGX4zxy2/bG/ivsSSckCksaZ/Jox0Y4oxaIGGNVVO38VqZJ90j /PyXtOZoiyn/VFR3Ldod1i2y4auHV0OaWunbxFt+u+JYSVd42KUcKlLYj16vwHJG/fqOD8vQ5plt JUQjFErqLIvzui3A1L4JHdDWbeZDmfoC1nhLTTvGQD8a6qkEUHgLN5apxzxSF2pYa3Ss6hBk9fGa WQWC8zGJRjJtOC5NuZUMLdBHf0ryQ7/LVGwsCfgVdgNRt7c4+N9a0uRmdlp8JmtEzbb4YA/W1lO/ OU5xiOPa5C1qQv3Qq9Dv6rLgQoxYA43fl1ZfsAAAAAAAAA== --Apple-Mail=_8DA4CEB8-1EFA-4401-8541-657C47336C6A--