From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?utf-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 22:07:55 +0900 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87a736wyed.fsf@yahoo.com> <2F7AD0CB-FF83-4244-BD77-7E0460A77762@icloud.com> <87wo6a7abj.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.80.23.2.2\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; delsp=yes; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="9053"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: =?utf-8?Q?S=C3=A9bastien_Gendre?= , Emacs developers To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 20 15:09:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQWAW-0002Ed-Ba for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 15:09:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35258 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQWAV-0000Zq-En for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:08:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:55310 helo=eggs1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQW9d-00007x-Ez for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:08:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs1p.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQW9c-00050u-W3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:08:05 -0400 Original-Received: from pv50p00im-zteg10021401.me.com ([17.58.6.47]:41035) by eggs1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQW9c-0004d5-He for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 09:08:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=icloud.com; s=1a1hai; t=1587388079; bh=SbPdmQ6iAbc6YxdhMvTwdjyn6HWmyLceV3Iy/gZ7liw=; h=Content-Type:Subject:From:Date:Message-Id:To; b=EpOt/JTa8lDNyI+zDq0NOUZGhATkVXXW9taScIA1FxTSXBZldDxJXXaqymzQMxz4q EvAHCi49DBk2whJgh6Sb5UvDC28sVlISvQN6DtAS/8Rl3nlsDMb2Fnp6v1Dx8d/yhV cmNPMXhuBO8VJSKFPJAbFN17nJLkeo3OhAjgfUpeayj53lw+0cwUe24KnlTaY4+/+h jFBuSIMjhoXKhz9K+SoTs5G6zwalQwmCknSid0GluMGy9EoSAe0UQNu9oQ4nch9907 Usgxqz6eTXIuBrFJk10NGQ+QUieTUBhCu6/DjaQSbI0gZXDXqoAjWzGAEodRktkMFT 5BXfvR7jGaK9g== Original-Received: from [192.168.0.2] (unknown [1.230.108.64]) by pv50p00im-zteg10021401.me.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id AEB9D4806FF; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 13:07:58 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: <87wo6a7abj.fsf@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.80.23.2.2) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.676 definitions=2020-04-20_04:2020-04-20, 2020-04-20 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=18 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-2002250000 definitions=main-2004200114 Received-SPF: pass client-ip=17.58.6.47; envelope-from=pcr910303@icloud.com; helo=pv50p00im-zteg10021401.me.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs1p.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/20 09:08:00 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer X-Received-From: 17.58.6.47 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247377 Archived-At: Po Lu 작성: > 조성빈 writes: > >> I can’t understand why you’re so opposed to changing defaults. Defaults >> matter, and I think that users who are already accustomed to Emacs will >> have an easier time changing options. (Like adding `(vanilla-mode 1)` >> to init.el.) > > I oppose changing defaults, because I value my tools remaining stable. > Having to frequently adjust my user-emacs-directory to encompass the > latest fancy new idea is an unacceptable maintenance burden to me. Then you can turn on ‘vanilla-mode’ on your init.el and call it a day. ‘vanilla-mode’ will be the current situation of Emacs - it will try to be stable. > Not > to mention in practice, those changes are going to be far larger than a > hypothetical `vanilla-mode'. Why? If you’re fine with the current level of changes in Emacs, that would be the level of changes in ‘vanilla-mode’. >> Adding a variable that makes Emacs warn if it’s version number is >> different from its value might work. > > I'm not sure what you're talking about; Variables don't persist across > Emacs sessions. I’m saying that one can add a variable like ‘expected-emacs-version’ and when Emacs is loading init.el and ‘expected-emacs-version’ is different from the current version, Emacs can warn you. >> The features that are best discoverable are the ones that are default. > > And since changing the defaults radically end up hurting existing users, No, it doesn’t. Better defaults help users and allow them to lighten their configuration. > and also existing packages and potentially the existing ecosystem. You > have to find a balance between that, and changing the defaults is not > the balance you want. The balance I’m suggesting (actually ndame) is to add a ‘vanilla-mode’ for people who value stability over features. >> Defaults have to change for experienced users to adjust. And for them, >> adjusting is an easy task, not something that takes a decade. > > "For existing users to adjust" is not an excuse -- that puts an extra > burden on users. No, it doesn’t - see previous comments.