From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: Emacs learning curve Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:08:27 -0700 Message-ID: References: <10954D02-E217-49F3-8824-757DA34074AB@gmail.com><83zkxzakr0.fsf@gnu.org> <83pqyva8ms.fsf@gnu.org><87630n6odf.fsf@lola.goethe.zz> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1278860932 12173 80.91.229.12 (11 Jul 2010 15:08:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:08:52 +0000 (UTC) To: "'Tom'" , Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 11 17:08:47 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OXy97-000796-LI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 17:08:46 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36695 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OXy96-0004od-UI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:08:44 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=58597 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1OXy92-0004nj-68 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:08:41 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OXy90-0002KD-O0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:08:39 -0400 Original-Received: from rcsinet10.oracle.com ([148.87.113.121]:50714) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1OXy90-0002Jy-FY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 11:08:38 -0400 Original-Received: from acsinet15.oracle.com (acsinet15.oracle.com [141.146.126.227]) by rcsinet10.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.2) with ESMTP id o6BF8YIG013571 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:08:36 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt354.oracle.com (acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154]) by acsinet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.4.2/Switch-3.4.1) with ESMTP id o6BDuIOZ001587; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 15:08:33 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt017.oracle.com by acsmt354.oracle.com with ESMTP id 416322241278860907; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:08:27 -0700 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/10.175.255.126) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sun, 11 Jul 2010 08:08:26 -0700 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-reply-to: Thread-Index: Acsg0/Fgf2Cri8gIR56hZ0STgeh/7wAKtREg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5931 X-Source-IP: acsmt354.oracle.com [141.146.40.154] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090203.4C39DE72.01A8:SCFMA4539814,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127051 Archived-At: > It's sad, because it's such a great tool, and I don't want to see > it fade away in obscurity. Don't be sad. Emacs will be here long after you and I will have bit the dust. 50 years from now someone who has newly discovered Emacs and tried unsuccessfully to turn casual-user friends, family, and colleagues onto it will opine the same anxious/delerious opinion that Emacs MUST move QUICKLY to adopt the ever-popular and universal FLOMBIT (TM) standard or it will RAPIDLY WASTE AWAY. If you could search the emacs-devel archives in the future you would see plenty of such periodic threads. This is not very different from someone who discovers fresh, organic, local food or fine French or Chinese cooking for the first time and wants to stop the world from wasting its time and health on junk food. Well, the difference is that such discoverers do not usually spend their time trying to convince the foodie community to start packaging their organic fare in Happy Meal (TM) boxes in order to reach the masses. It's normal when you discover something good (good wine, good music, good art, good science, good health...) to want to share that discovery and feeling, to turn everyone else onto it. Visit Facebook if that's not clear. ATTENTION!! EVERYONE ****MUST**** LEARN THAT X IS WHERE IT'S AT, NOW!!!. But that's an individual learning experience. Do not confuse your enthusiasm arising from the gap between you yesterday and new-you today with the gap between the world without X and the world + X. Do not conclude that X will soon disappear if everyone does not quickly wake up and smell the coffee. Proselytize for Emacs, if you will, and wrap it in CUA-mode and such if you think that will help you proselytize, but do not confuse your missionary zeal with some real lack on the part of Emacs. You want to close the gap, fine. But do not assume that the reason Emacs is not on every breakfast table is that it is missing what Fruit Loops has. > But if easy of entry is not increased for casual users then > it [fade away into obscurity] is the most probable future > for our beloved editor. Evidence? News of the impending demise of Emacs is yesterday's (false) news. Emacs can, does, and will learn from outside developments. Sometimes it learns slowly; sometimes it learns the wrong lesson; but in the long run it tends to pick up useful improvements. It is a mistake to think that it MUST or even should adopt this or that approach or feature. If you really want to help, then find and promote real improvements (see the mention of Eclipse features and CEDET in this thread), not just "improvements" that amount only to syncing with the mainstream of the moment. For a century or two everyone was convinced that whole-grain bread was old-fashioned and inferior for health and in taste. It was considered on its way out, a vestige consumed only by a few ignorant, old country folk on their last legs. One can imagine some well-intentioned "Defenders of the Wholely Grain" crying Chicken Little, stressing the urgency of bleaching whole grain to make it look like the white bread that the masses had become accustomed to, in order to save wholeness from outright extinction. Save the Wholes! White flour is still popular (and dominant) today, but whole grain has been around for millenia and is still appreciated, even by some who are not on their last legs. The period when its imminent demise was foreseen amounts, so far, to only a teeny blip on the history screen. Someone might well repeat `This tends to lock people into corners by saying "look how good we are".' If so, don't bother - you're missing the point. Not agreeing to follow a fad or the mainstream on this or that feature is not a refusal to consider all new features or improvements. The argument that Emacs should (or MUST) do X just because the mainstream or the Flavor Of The Week does X is a weak argument. It _is_ an argument to consider, but it is a weak one. If that is the _only_ support for making some change then, well... Am I satisfied that Emacs development always adds the right features in the right way or otherwise makes the changes that _I_ think would be improvements? Hehe - if you read this list then you know the answer. What it's about is discussion - argument and evidence - of possible changes. If you want some change, then argue to support it on its merits. The devil is in the _details_. Blanket whining that we should do X because EVERYONE is doing X doesn't work for teenie boppers trying to get parental permission, and it doesn't work here either. Argue your case, with particulars. And be prepared to think again - and not necessarily to win your case. FWIW, I feel the same about changes that ARE made by Emacs development. IMHO, changes are sometimes (too often) made without sufficient reason, discussion, and argument. The same thing I say to those who want this or that change I say also to those who implement this or that change without sufficient debate and investigation: "Reasons, argument, evidence, please."