From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuan Fu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2020 15:30:56 -0400 Message-ID: References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.120.23.2.1\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="450"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F_Kayaalp?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 08 21:31:42 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFjLB-000AXh-Uk for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 21:31:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44042 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFjLA-0003aK-Vb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 15:31:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36416) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFjKW-00031D-LM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 15:31:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]:43478) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFjKU-0008UV-Mm for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 15:31:00 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id o16so193696qkj.10 for ; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:30:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=owbIUaq4nJiGH4Pa1r+izhH/kRroz9Vgge2FG71bsS8=; b=qKzTd+k5Ee9PpoNyKDUP+M8Rd40aSEn6fHLsm06iUTc/o38JwUhvuRVdpJ6KsI/L+m Pm57bWt0DduNbI+uoySyjOK4W/88pR7nVLhno3eNRX0qzlQDKFPNnBrPNzd+oLThePqm TXi1Tiu99m7NybvdfYIpJFi5/6D2xs2hoxyYlTeDfYbo2QB65OplYmdDtiexWQ2S3NB9 3Zd+g86Z//AAkgFu0tqr3vq+CjZtNMbziMd9HIwTnt4qNzZTENyv0qIIlHRwXkAnbOcR cSHp/JzP/EVq8gWK+xbx/JZ/gbhu031gPDesF+ac7uTwXk+Flp3nGBLFswtTF4FpeUHO T06w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=owbIUaq4nJiGH4Pa1r+izhH/kRroz9Vgge2FG71bsS8=; b=jsa0An1HDURBtmZQf4SfpfMLzZvjbekifVhDVQVIkC5bHUeoJCmYa02wiJEAuPlgEm 5H3Rw681+hJRAo+zUOfESakUrO7e8wbcIDwXXwqvgVwRMCyRs412oM74xnRPbT6UYPeA Bx+MRmUxp4wefoh7M9CjrzZKLC25R1zUDjBSb9Q0gAb37vYWzSIMghSY6gAWUwXojBWv c6HvseA6uC9gIYbXM7ugD8WJDJUAbX+2hhhugK2Yzzoel18jRp6slGdIQ0qg+kAA6aU6 sRb9w+/F5mAzoRW5cbzc9tFtnBSr2BWgDSTy84dx6axo4OnU0xB+lE12OuSiQhHZTc0+ Tpeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531oUv7jyhOi2fOcLW/2cg+bsPRYA9OxNPuPx1jcrSHfPHLXcYqe IOen9xzuxVVBoxWJ/5zvL0Tiq5Qt4WOXUEJ4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJw/OGzMNMMLdHZ0t/2B81deyg+ASVoolaA77QjFW4wffFAgmczowsbkTaIL8ngrCCRnoazCfg== X-Received: by 2002:a37:d53:: with SMTP id 80mr155490qkn.136.1599593457557; Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from ?IPv6:2601:98a:4200:9210:d191:c3f4:7d48:43d2? ([2601:98a:4200:9210:d191:c3f4:7d48:43d2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s5sm438072qtj.25.2020.09.08.12.30.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 08 Sep 2020 12:30:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.120.23.2.1) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e; envelope-from=casouri@gmail.com; helo=mail-qk1-x72e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254805 Archived-At: > On Sep 8, 2020, at 2:48 PM, G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp = wrote: >=20 >=20 >> I think everybody would agree on attracting more people to use >> Emacs=E2=80=94that means more blogs and help, more contributor, etc. = And >> people agree that Emacs isn=E2=80=99t as beginner-friendly as it = could be. The >> problem is what to improve, and how. >=20 > Not necessarily. Personally, I don=E2=80=99t see much benefit in = trying to > appeal users that have no background in coding whatsoever, and users = who > wouldn=E2=80=99t really benefit from what Emacs has to offer. >=20 >> As the first step, we should collect real experiences from real >> beginners: someone starts to use Emacs just recently (e.g., less than >> one year). >=20 > The major problem is that someone who fiddled with Emacs now and > couldn=E2=80=99t make use of it may think differently when a couple = years later > they have some knowledge of programming (not necessarily = professionally) > and some experience with other tools. >=20 > Anecdotally, I=E2=80=99ve picked up and quit Emacs multiple times = before I > decided to stay with it. And it=E2=80=99s been more than 6 years now = that I=E2=80=99m > using it for the good part of my computing. What was puzzling and = weird > to me back then is useful and essential to me now. >=20 > What I mean is, what is good for newcomers, who are not guaranteed to > stay, can be irrelevant, not so good, or even off-putting to actual > users of this package of software. Emacs is a power tool, and like = all > power tools, requires two preconditions to be useful: 1) the user = should > *need* the tool, and 2) the user should be willing to put in the time = to > learn the tool. And a good power tool is designed with user who need > and use them the most in mind. >=20 > IDK. IMHO, we shouldn=E2=80=99t break stuff in Emacs itself, and maybe = promote > distros for people that want a more "modern" experience instead. They > don=E2=80=99t have the backwards compatibility baggage of Emacs so = they will do > it better than Emacs core nevertheless. >=20 > -- > =C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / = > pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427 >=20 I generally agree with your point. However, what I have in mind is not = changing defaults, but rather a configuration wizard, that can prompt = user and let him select from Emacs binding vs CUA binding, Emacs undo vs = simple undo/redo, themes, etc. I=E2=80=99ve seen such wizard in Intellj = Idea, Spacemacs, etc. Something like (just an example): ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Set UI themes: - [ ] default - [ ] dark - [ ] ... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Keybinding notation: C (control) Ctrl M (meta) Alt/Option s (super) Windows/Command S (shift) Shift Set keybinding style for copy/paste: [ ] default M-w Copy C-y Paste C-w Cut [ ] alternative C-c Copy C-v Paste C-x Cut [Next] [Skip] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [ ] Enable line numbers [ ] Use thin cursor [ ] Disable tool bar [ ] Disable scroll bar [Next] [Skip] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Emacs has a powerful (but possibly unintuitive) undo system, where undo operations themselves are recorded in the undo history, and redo is done by undoing an previous undo operation. Set undo style: [ ] default C-/ Undo [ ] linear C-/ Undo C-? Redo [ ] alternative C-z Undo C-S-z Redo [Next] [Skip] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Additional packages: [ ] Company Popup completion. [ ] Ivy Completion for opening files, executing commands, etc. [ ] Expand-region Incrementally expand selection. [ ] Which-key Shows possible keybindings. =20 [Finish] You can re-run this guide by M-x beginner-guide RET Yuan