From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuri Khan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master 9ce1d38: Use curved quotes in core elisp diagnostics Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:08:27 +0600 Message-ID: References: <20150816160149.9416.80132@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <55D1043C.3030909@yandex.ru> <55D15899.2070105@cs.ucla.edu> <20150817121513.GA2634@acm.fritz.box> <55D21191.8070202@cs.ucla.edu> <20150817173551.GB2634@acm.fritz.box> <20150818154857.GC2262@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1439917743 2488 80.91.229.3 (18 Aug 2015 17:09:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 17:09:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Paul Eggert , Dmitry Gutov , Emacs developers To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 18 19:09:02 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRkNh-0008Dk-4I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:09:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58531 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRkNg-00082R-7z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:09:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47840) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRkNa-0007y7-9y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:08:58 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRkNX-0002bh-5X for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:08:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lb0-x231.google.com ([2a00:1450:4010:c04::231]:32864) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRkNW-0002bL-Pt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 13:08:51 -0400 Original-Received: by lbbsx3 with SMTP id sx3so107332219lbb.0 for ; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:08:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=14kPY/bnXH5oSoS8fNlnfYtngbGW1lw51naIrzR90/4=; b=hx43tKVqSJwW3qtq/X0+DeZEyM2onsbg1Mo58nJwiXiDFIAGjcX8Z8ygBNq2wumbW2 aKCWBbQD5IjJhEzrz7u/3KRRnH+tJGG8jgryjsatbd3u+KCeh7/SbqK/Ya1Wr0OVntks yFTNZx9sVnulc3uJ1RvweOyvuQPI3O22JzDnfrKJ1aBjWCSx9AiIaXcyWo72g/hf8/Hl njDY2uoWKaQUzFbXnV8suFjHW9DSiSqSAuyrxDLXjaySDZtjmwSm9mcEqTUI6PuUzMNf 075VDrMvsNKHloBl3G/N1bMjl47YWkZ0cvLsdTZDiqgdLw7IR2cUm+Vgi/1RqphUNZLJ XEqA== X-Received: by 10.112.199.66 with SMTP id ji2mr7167876lbc.1.1439917730065; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.25.206.1 with HTTP; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 10:08:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20150818154857.GC2262@acm.fritz.box> X-Google-Sender-Auth: TRQ9LP97y_-fY7lIIdv1A30Mb1M X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4010:c04::231 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:188897 Archived-At: On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > There are already input methods for curly quotes (C-x 8 [ and C-x 8 ], I > believe), but whether these will ever count as "convenient", I somehow > doubt. Even typing [ and ] on a German keyboard layout (just as an > example) is somewhat less than convenient. Correct. Using Emacs as the input method is not feasible for users of other applications. My current method of entering curly quotes is comparable to entering brackets on a German keyboard =E2=80=94 hold down right Alt, press a single key. I find it good enough for such infrequent characters. >> We need terminals which are capable of displaying the whole repertoire >> of Unicode, because otherwise we have to make a choice of the subset >> we=E2=80=99d like to be able to see. > > Such terminals probably exist. However, they're not what "everybody" is > using. =E2=80=9CEverybody=E2=80=9D is not using a terminal at all. =E2=80=9CEveryb= ody=E2=80=9D uses a graphical desktop. Including, in some circumstances, a terminal emulator. Xterm, for one, does not support all of Unicode equally well, but curly quotes are unproblematic. > The Linux virtual terminal, which I use, is currently limited to > 256 distinct glyphs. Actually 512 if you sacrifice 8 of the 16 colors, and there is possibility of replacing it with fbterm or other framebuffer-based terminals. > Yesterday, Eli > Z. reported a problem on an MS-Windows terminal which couldn't display > these characters at all. I used to use Windows, including the Windows console, as my primary environment. It displays most of the European part of Unicode allright, once you configure it to use a TrueType or OpenType font. CJK is harder (because most Han characters want to occupy two character cells each) and RTL is harder still, but, again, curly quotes are unproblematic. Some applications (notably, ports of Unix utilities) have problems displaying Unicode on the Windows console. That is a bug in those applications. >> (As far as I am concerned, both are solved problems already. It=E2=80=99= s just >> that the solutions are not mainstream enough.) > > I'd be interested in hearing a bit more about what you see as the > solutions. Usually, you don't get something for nothing, and I'd bet > that these solutions come with their own disadvantages, compared with > what "everybody" is currently using. For output, the solution is a graphical environment. With TrueType, OpenType or otherwise vector-based scalable fonts, rendered through a facility which supports Unicode, ligatures, combining diacritics, RTL, complex scripts, rich formatting and whatnot. For input, my current setup involves two layouts (for English/Latin and Russian/Cyrillic), which differ in their 1st and 2nd levels, but have common 3rd and 4th levels, activated with right Alt with and without Shift. This accommodates like 99.99% of my typing needs. For the remaining cases, I resort to a character map application or to Emacs=E2=80=99 insert-char. I don=E2=80=99t think I am losing much for it. I am vaguely aware that havi= ng two Alt keys is more convenient than just one but, to be frank, I also under-use right Shift and right Ctrl. (My first computer did not have a right Shift; that might have influenced my typing habits.) New keyboard designs are emerging which provide more keys intended to be pressed with thumbs. This is ideal for multi-level layouts. The classic AT keyboard with only 0.5 to 1.5 keys per thumb needs to give way.