From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuri Khan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2014 01:26:20 +0700 Message-ID: References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvc8kdsp.fsf@gnu.org> <6e11cd85-09a0-4b7a-baa2-0c810bdebbce@default> <871tnsg0w7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <834msoqrsg.fsf@gnu.org> <831tnrr8pm.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419272806 853 80.91.229.3 (22 Dec 2014 18:26:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 18:26:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Lennart Borgman , Tom , Emacs developers To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 22 19:26:39 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y37gk-0003Y5-G0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 19:26:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41523 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y37gj-00076d-Ue for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:26:37 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41052) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y37gW-00076K-NI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:26:26 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y37gV-0003EX-5o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:26:24 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ig0-x22f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f]:61568) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y37gT-0003Dg-8D; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:26:21 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ig0-f175.google.com with SMTP id h15so4375780igd.2; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 10:26:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=b56XUUxUDg+TB/kYITt3waka5Ww1Qh5lbT2PEMmjsBE=; b=qyrGe5Za2ffV4l6lPdAjLnh8v/YOMCfyav7pp73igom8pMEP5jEkMZRnZLhfaJ95sJ yU2EE4jJCbh8YDm+hisoeYvGOyeo61p9XvCu/4tTiddWiHEFqnhquGYlXT084iTNGpT/ WxgjGKWCZ5z75Fkm5lJus/kAvOX6KM/MZV8azK7DKc/THDRTMG5St1kBR/SKfaoy+Sow PTer96pfzmnnqupamf3nKdIDD9tD6XKZJNAPPuSXW+TQ3jE8p3N2/8lYJTdoDZS2hNDR /3WwA6TrPly5xCvZLH2Y1JcHS//sKZ0Ju2R/h4WgqdJ72QndsWJroVM/3+vPZ3Npnzhl yA2A== X-Received: by 10.42.88.212 with SMTP id d20mr19128532icm.32.1419272780692; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 10:26:20 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.107.48.82 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 10:26:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <831tnrr8pm.fsf@gnu.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: f6AKYB-rkXk5h0WLzSGc1fWoWqA X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22f X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180518 Archived-At: On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:43 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> I use Google to search for information about Emacs, unless I know >> exactly what I=E2=80=99m looking for. > > That's a mistake. The Info's 'i' command is precisely the means to > use when you do NOT know exactly what you are looking for. I urge you > to try that next time: at 'i's prompt type some word or phrase that > you think relates to the subject you are after, and see what happens. This is limited to the features that are currently installed. The question =E2=80=9Chow do I do X=E2=80=9D does not always mean =E2=80=9Chow = do I do X using features I already have installed=E2=80=9D =E2=80=94 rather frequently it m= eans =E2=80=9Cwhat can I install in order to do X=E2=80=9D. > The Info manuals are indexed up front with this usage pattern in mind, > and you'd be surprised how efficient this search can be. Well, with > good manuals, anyway. (Emacs manuals are good.) We add index entries > all the time to continuously improve the indexing. What good is an efficient search facility if it is limited to good manuals? I program in several languages, not only and not primarily Elisp. I want to have a single search habit which works for all languages, libraries and tools that I use. Typing =E2=80=9Cgg =E2= =80=9D into my Firefox=E2=80=99s address bar gives me that. Info, only if the relevant Info manuals exist, are installed and contain the information I want. I come from Windows background and I used to be used to well-indexed MSDN Library manuals. (This was before they replaced their hand-made indexes with machine-generated crap.) I know the value of a good index and I miss them. But unless all tools I need to use come with Info manuals, I will still have to search the Web. > I encourage you (or anyone else) to enhance info.el, which will remove > or hide the newlines from the explanatory text, and then use word-wrap > and wrap-prefix to get the same effect as you see in HTML browsers. > (Not that I understand why it would be more readable to have the > description in 200-column lines, but if someone wants such a feature, > why not?) The only not-entirely-trivial part here is to identify the > lines where the newlines should be kept, like examples, list items, > etc. But there are enough clues in the text to identify those, in the > same manner as we identify the section headings. You are suggesting that I solve a backward problem =E2=80=94 inferring structure given a hard-wrapped text rendition. And, as much as I can infer without reading the Info source, it=E2=80=99s all like that =E2=80=94= first render to an unparseable format, then heuristically infer structure. Why do that when it=E2=80=99s possible to just not lose structural informat= ion at all? And, where do you get that mythical 200-column width? A 24" display accommodates two side-by-side frames, 100 columns each. >> * The HTML version uses my preferred proportional font for prose and >> my preferred monospace font for code. The Info version is monospace >> throughout, except for headings. > > Likewise: should be easy to do this for Info. Patches are welcome. I might do that *if* Info were sufficiently better for me than Google-indexed HTML. As it stands, it is not. >> * The HTML version uses text styles to highlight different kinds of >> text (keys, commands, paths, arguments, etc.). The Info version uses >> the spacing grave accent and the straight single quote and all-caps >> formatting. >> * The HTML version uses typographic quotes =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D. The Info = version uses >> straight quotes "". > > Some of this is simply untrue nowadays, I guess you haven't looked at > an Info manual for a few years. Emacs manual, emacs24-common-non-dfsg 24.3+1-1 as packaged in Ubuntu Trusty on 2013-04-13. Ok, maybe it=E2=80=99s ancient; I don=E2=80=99t know. >> To summarize the above, the HTML version =E2=80=9Cfeels like=E2=80=9D an= electronic >> version of a well-typeset printed book. The Info version feels like an >> electronic version of a samizdat book typed on a typewriter. >> *Readability counts.* > > If this is an itch to scratch, I invite you and others to scratch it. > Should be a fine project, and not a hard one, either. Volunteers are > welcome. I see no reason to. Improving the HTML output to support indexes is a much more productive goal. >> no autoscrolling > > Not sure what that means. Emacs certainly auto-scrolls when point > enters the scroll-margin. In browser parlance, =E2=80=9Cautoscrolling=E2=80=9D means that you can pre= ss the middle mouse button and the content starts to scroll. It comes in two minor variations. * You can press and release, then a circle appears around the point where you middle-clicked, and as soon as you move the mouse outside this circle, the content starts to scroll at a constant speed in the direction where you moved the mouse. Move it farther, and it scrolls faster. Move it closer, and it scrolls slower. Move it back inside the circle, and it stops but is ready to start scrolling again if you move outside. Middle-click again to stop. * Or, you can press and hold. Then it works the same way as described above, except that releasing the middle button exits the scroll mode. It=E2=80=99s somewhat similar to wheel scrolling but different. > As was written many times here, HTML-Info browser you are talking > about doesn't exist. It needs to be coded first. Existing HTML > browsers lack a few important features, they were identified in these > discussions. Works for me, except for the wonderful hand-crafted indexes. > Btw, if you, or someone else, are ambitious, I can suggest a larger > and more challenging project: add a front end to Info's search > capabilities that can accept queries in more-or-less natural language, > not unlike Google. Examples of such queries: > > . "how do I do SOMETHING?" > . "what is THAT-THING?" > . "look for SUBJECT but excluding THIS-CRAP" > > etc. Bonus points for maintaining a database of user-specific > preferences and personal style of queries, and applying that to future > queries. > > Interested? Might be a good research project for a candidate dissertation in linguistics/programming. Requires much more time than I=E2=80=99m prepared = to invest; sorry.