From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Yuri Khan Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Have you all gone crazy? Was: On being web-friendly and why info must die Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 12:25:19 +0700 Message-ID: References: <87388bnzha.fsf@newcastle.ac.uk> <87k31mdbhe.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87tx0qiv45.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <87h9wqd3i5.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fvc8kdsp.fsf@gnu.org> <6e11cd85-09a0-4b7a-baa2-0c810bdebbce@default> <871tnsg0w7.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <834msoqrsg.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1419225938 7797 80.91.229.3 (22 Dec 2014 05:25:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2014 05:25:38 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Tom , Emacs-Devel devel To: Lennart Borgman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 22 06:25:31 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2vUn-00061C-Io for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 06:25:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39159 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2vUm-0003mE-Ji for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 00:25:28 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:44397) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2vUh-0003m5-ID for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 00:25:24 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2vUg-0003rr-Em for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 00:25:23 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ie0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232]:48111) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Y2vUe-0003rX-K7; Mon, 22 Dec 2014 00:25:20 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ie0-f178.google.com with SMTP id vy18so2025628iec.37; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:25:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Cv2BkJpwhjsvOt6b2kPZIAJckRXI/wfD/ysUBOC45M0=; b=wr6NvjSjvsXQdAJwNKje2eq34fmEjtEvn7T2Pazi1G9R/sQVrRrFi30wGpihHr8sCk Z4hBWCwFuzKSYpFgVWsmFukFBFtDyfNDItQk2TRMPl4u0Te1TtmkFwkMhyiJy4mGXqYw Bh9ELk3bEu1H5wDvd23QJtD1biHJp2ZNt8MBKz2d3J2r6AtBn2IoreZDMG9w6NiUSXoM +DgVVzd1CWjoeYqFhs7PdKGUctd5nilRsnp6LO8NTIP1CFvuN4K13APmnr8+xo8YfxbT jFij82yrrqenGPNprkRBHvePmeORYrKHQmWIMRn1eX0GxEKQfeYlOTe+QCoCj5MehHBF xX/A== X-Received: by 10.107.152.144 with SMTP id a138mr18999790ioe.39.1419225920004; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:25:20 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.107.48.82 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Dec 2014 21:25:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Google-Sender-Auth: s0N3qC4d6pM5UWYnfIJ_l_iLX_U X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:180463 Archived-At: On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:54 AM, Lennart Borgman wrote: >>> Users want to get the information fast and it is much faster to >>> search for something in google than trying to find the relevant >>> section of the manual. >> >> That's simply incorrect, if you use the 'i' command in Info, which is >> the main way of searching an Info manual. > > That is perhaps more an opinion? I definitively think users who know > Google search well can find the information very quickly that way. And > new users - who we want to help, of course - probably are very good at > that. I use Google to search for information about Emacs, unless I know exactly what I=E2=80=99m looking for. E.g. I use k and f and v, and to a lesser extent w, to ask Emacs itself about a particular key, function, variable or command when I know the name exactly or well enough to use completion. In these cases, I want authoritative information. On the other hand, when my question is more like =E2=80=9CHow do I i= n Emacs=E2=80=9D, I=E2=80=99m not specifically looking for a page in the Emac= s manual. Rather, I want a page in the manual, plus a range of ways how other people do X, and a range of opinions on why X is the wrong thing to want to do. Google gives me that. Info doesn=E2=80=99t. *By searching with Google, I extend the scope of my search beyond the Emacs manual.* Additionally, the HTML rendition of the Emacs manual is more convenient to read for me, because of these differences: * The HTML version wraps to the size of my browser. The Info version is hard-wrapped for 72 columns. * The HTML version uses my preferred proportional font for prose and my preferred monospace font for code. The Info version is monospace throughout, except for headings. * The HTML version uses text styles to highlight different kinds of text (keys, commands, paths, arguments, etc.). The Info version uses the spacing grave accent and the straight single quote and all-caps formatting. * The HTML version uses typographic quotes =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9D. The Info ver= sion uses straight quotes "". To summarize the above, the HTML version =E2=80=9Cfeels like=E2=80=9D an el= ectronic version of a well-typeset printed book. The Info version feels like an electronic version of a samizdat book typed on a typewriter. *Readability counts.* * Firefox provides pixelwise autoscrolling on middle mouse button, and opens links in new tabs when middle-clicked. Emacs Info has no pixelwise scrolling, no autoscrolling, and prefers to have no more than one *info* buffer. Replacing the Info output format with HTML and replacing the Emacs Info browser with an Emacs HTML-Info browser might help with the readability issue. Improving the Emacs display engine might provide a better reading experience. But the search scope issue requires an all-encompassing Web search engine.