From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Pip Cet Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Modernize frame-title-format: "%b - GNU Emacs" Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2020 17:06:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <83y2m01me0.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33790"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Kangas , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 27 19:08:15 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kBLNm-0008hj-Ix for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 19:08:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38160 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kBLNl-0002ae-Jo for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:08:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52486) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kBLMo-0001IJ-8S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:07:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x332.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::332]:38873) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kBLMk-0006Dw-Lx; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 13:07:13 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x332.google.com with SMTP id i11so5006634otr.5; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:07:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dQlriDiGkvM7ot0SD8ANQzgQHeBXwhj1edRcIusmrVE=; b=MT6BFPtUzm7sAJ8NPWR6h16T87+XpYw/e1mfql+iVurVn6VVinYK79dWk/rsmtIF9C 8GsgEN5YsXQ26PaCUagALG9iGBcyT/cHJhRKZYSc0uj1ipwv00s4wXTqeh+ZLGfCiGoh 0+0ZtSxYBlIEVEia4LM0bvgbgJm1GhRHlX/NAbuxPP/yMyRJkjolwnrJTiT7f5S1bXU1 MMRZtPJCnxrfBHsoifSZcOc7KJVmFQAtD0MhcdJwohl9vhiLqyy5/vUC3tNzIXoCEZTB E/ekwyYW6XYWsablcSKrcT3sa3+LisUloRXcGipEyh+GqMpZmTGMOK2Vfe5IOVlg96zN dYbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dQlriDiGkvM7ot0SD8ANQzgQHeBXwhj1edRcIusmrVE=; b=HEY8nAFz8Fc/L/dUQ68EB4XgQYp7oQ0dMVwTCMyOSAihmR5Ll9Zt3YQHJkP+vqZCUG UqfFqBz4usv8L0GQhENVtIAGqSf7QDjilmluD7jQLnPllWyANgIMsajqIiOEtpoz5Uh9 xuDZMG40rsVEfC5ynfpdM4bkhurKAiyUosO6buRB7IIucLopSuADJ6t+laK80Lq8lbvU cN8cFocwd0eKwvX6AHs/+279lUnQL8vsWNi3Y65cOkNbi9aLjTNMsiMwovTplRdRnvIU mscNs7JKjEzHJzGqtowv7OlyIMvjvHfGdb25tN2Dj6+xshBDSCixLkw0yOuIVAi0iGXo gSGA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5321LXUyHhiz+zl/YrKRLOuI57xvzjj1Cx9pDttwb6rs/NSGRnJW Yf7dtgk4y08CoanPvAWLhnOJwz1hbwh4arZsHTuhftgSgQ4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyYWOpJ7tnWiboo7PxhN8IyjhWR2rnrp16T6I+/Uoir2GBYWEhUNMphIcQbtujMnfIljrT6Iu1JUVvTHC186Z8= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:74c3:: with SMTP id a3mr5185559otl.292.1598548024050; Thu, 27 Aug 2020 10:07:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83y2m01me0.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::332; envelope-from=pipcet@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x332.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254310 Archived-At: On Thu, Aug 27, 2020 at 9:19 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > I personally think it makes sense to just do what other modern software > > does here, but Eli felt that we need more opinions before making any > > change I strongly disagree with that argument, and weakly disagree with the conclusion. GNU software is very different from most software in that it is not attentionware: It is provided in the hope that it will be useful. Other software, apart from some but by no means all of the software you pay for, is distributed in exchange for human attention. (In fact, with so much of it being hosted on Cloudflare servers, you're expected to "prove that you are human" to even access it.) You can often configure it not to bombard you with what is essentially advertising, but it is correctly assumed that most people don't have the time to do that, and it is not made easy to do so. We're already exposing users to a lot of "branding": if you type "emacs" and hit enter, there's the logo, the start-up message, and the splash screen, to list only those things that are impossible for normal users to avoid. "Branding" the frame title, even if we know the name of the file being edited, would certainly be another entry in that list. The right fix for this is for Emacs, along with all other applications, to obey system/session/user policy about how much "branding" the user wants. By the time a user learns enough about Emacs to configure the frame title, they'll already have logged many hours of using it. I propose we make Emacs obey an environment variable, or whatever mechanism is appropriate, informing us about the user choice in that matter, and to err distinctly on the side of not displaying "Emacs" all over the place. > I'd actually encourage people to think what would be useful to show > there, not necessarily how to follow others' suit. What does this > addition add to the information displayed on the GUI terminal, and how > will it be useful -- that's the kind of arguments that I hoped to see. I don't think that question can be answered categorically for all users. I don't even think it would be acceptable to go with a default setting if it were easy to customize this, and it's not (M-x customize RET frame title RET doesn't work). This really is a question that the user wants to answer once, for all applications, just like they're not expected to choose a new keyboard layout for each application: how many unilateral messages containing nothing but a reminder of which software you're using and who made it do you want to receive? This really isn't for us to decide, it should be up to the X window manager or desktop environment, or whatever equivalent Wayland has. In the absence of a good working mechanism to learn about the user choice, let's go with an environment variable. I'd certainly welcome the ability to type "export BRANDING=none" and have GNU software (I wouldn't expect other software authors to follow suit) respect it.