From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Praharsh Suryadevara Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 11:06:35 -0500 Message-ID: References: <875z8ortot.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <83ft7rkp9e.fsf@gnu.org> <871rjbrpt9.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000074aecc05aee3a342" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="28015"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Yuan Fu , rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: =?UTF-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8gS2F5YWFscA==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 09 18:07:37 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2dF-0007Cd-BB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:07:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47104 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2dE-0000tA-Bd for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:07:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51516) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2cX-0000Kd-Ji for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:06:55 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x534.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::534]:42880) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG2cU-0004hy-7k; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:06:53 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x534.google.com with SMTP id m5so2385539pgj.9; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9+SxhORYuI3FEUB9tb3wKlZ45X6j8oUtlVolZkPx44Q=; b=clAS7BcVP8r+fUAQZxJQKrRjWgxlyOXehHWeZ3QEC75tfTmiE7Cv8e/UH/KAdsbden zf3krOZCtpEuJFc5QDBIHB/ew2YZNZ1IFqFq89W2Zp44RXU2G22U0mLIMbVL1SlYJzKb VU6WM0h9usKJrc/+Z5NpfU1AjYUznZfPOgLtOxGM/wiNm/RtJP4MNhJa7g4I5GnEYBe8 g5KjcySRUaIpo6J+xV+UqIz9I+Yf2fbX38aBdRKFjhLq5BeizIR+24HYYg374VivvR8S rRhZ98u7k8lcUJLpoC8VQIvsOpUET4kvgLblkLC4JpcTI850E/myPs9lvcEYKV3KHCnG 0hiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9+SxhORYuI3FEUB9tb3wKlZ45X6j8oUtlVolZkPx44Q=; b=VLprZ/lY8uksVY9LG1Givs8i5N0XuTZvYbJjTwAVz9zJPARXUlaAiukYVfEVBAijMi 3uJyJAIvA2iCM+RCaE1oa/sPstyjPlNqhnFY4YKa4WF0z3G1R3iFGh7J2P2uubHOZbE2 UV7nEOnqy/Wl+qZ/tVG2bzC05vMa27WNooQCQwkddOkAZfFXP2vGI70lWlHbgtOaUHHP oFCa5PHjcp2vJCUj0vBLnCylFNO+P8s8eBu4O6ctOeX8/65AMda8JkRZZO3lRiTmz3up DfnXCAkF0QahEegXuyWnAAsTyoU+7AqaadPHQoBae6MWOTqN6Jv2QJ0wSAauhDE0tGvp ocrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533YOhGq6+WCdmvx5aKMQ77s2lt7A/elIy8KMmRFsfG4FmA+WZc5 d5DZgPv9RLUomGaBLm7bBL1vk0uW5pvTKB1/RWk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy7ek8u7I7Jz8IlzCLOII8QqeOEAvHDj11OI8XnS54S+830XVdwU+ZrYOIKtBK23wHK0V8VX7XbsDUrjRdcO28= X-Received: by 2002:a63:5420:: with SMTP id i32mr1147660pgb.149.1599667606693; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 09:06:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <871rjbrpt9.fsf@gkayaalp.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::534; envelope-from=praharsharmm@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x534.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254893 Archived-At: --00000000000074aecc05aee3a342 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that could be one reason why. A friend set me up with a starter kit later. Before that, I made a few attempts at vanilla emacs and gave up and I did not realize CUA mode existed until yesterday. I understand it'd be much more helpful if I remembered the details, but it's been a while and I'm used to and very happy with the emacs defaults now. A more useful method would be to put a friend/colleague who's never used emacs in front of vanilla emacs and observe them figure it out (I'm sure some of us may have put them in front of it already). The point I believe in is, *It possible to make emacs easier for new users to be able to start working in emacs from the beginning without sacrificing any functionality for old users* This need not come from changing the defaults, but rather from a startup wizard or a profile which *sets the bindings/preferences according to what the user wants.* This is useful *because a new user won't know enough e-lisp to make the editor do what he/she/they can work with.* As for startup wizards, I was talking about what Yuan was proposing ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(software)), a series of dialog boxes that would introduce new users to emacs and give them a setup that they could work with. @tomas While I understand your point, I think there's a difference between switching from emacs to vim/ vice versa (I don't complain about vim keybindings after using emacs and I wouldn't expect people to complain vice versa) and a new user who's only used C-x and C-c for cut and paste for all their life being exposed to emacs (or vim). @Eli As for options for the configuration wizard, If I were to assume I was the audience being targeted when I started (an early 20s physics undergrad who wrote basic python and wanted a good LaTeX editor), I think I would be minimally happy with CUA mode with some basic AUCTeX setup. Maybe, some of the minimal options would be easy to flesh out? Thanks, Praharsh On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:24 AM G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp = wrote: > On 2020-09-09 17:18 +03, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > The reason we didn't put these on the splash screen is because we have > > a menu bar, where everyone can find these popular commands without the > > need to read any instructions. Who will not know nowadays that to > > open a file, one need to click on "File" and look in the menu that > > drops down from that? > > It looks like some of the starter kits / distributions are disabling > menu and toolbars. > > We might ask them that they at least don=E2=80=99t disable menu-bar-mode = by > default if that=E2=80=99s the case. > > > -- > =C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / > pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427 > --00000000000074aecc05aee3a342 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think that could be one reason why. A f= riend set me up with a starter kit later. Before that, I made a few attempt= s at vanilla emacs and gave up and I did not realize CUA mode existed until= yesterday.
I understand it'd be much more helpfu= l if I remembered the details, but it's been a while and I'm used t= o and very happy with the emacs defaults now.=C2=A0A more useful method wou= ld be to put a friend/colleague who's never used emacs in front of vani= lla emacs and observe them figure it out (I'm sure some of us may have = put them in front of it already).

The point I believe in is, It possible to make emacs easier for= new users to be able to start working in emacs from the beginning without = sacrificing any functionality for old users=C2=A0
This need no= t come from changing the defaults, but rather from a startup wizard or a pr= ofile which sets the bindings/preferences according to what the user wan= ts.=C2=A0
This is useful because a new user won't know enoug= h e-lisp to make the editor do what he/she/they can work with.

As for startup wizards, I was talking about= what Yuan=C2=A0was proposing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(sof= tware)), a series of dialog boxes that would introduce new users to ema= cs and give them a setup that they could work with.

@tomas While I understand your point, I think there's a difference be= tween switching from emacs to vim/ vice versa (I don't complain about v= im keybindings after using emacs and I wouldn't expect people to compla= in vice versa) and a new user who's only used C-x and C-c for cut and p= aste for all their life being exposed to emacs (or vim).

@Eli As for options for the configuration wizard, If I were to assum= e I was the audience being targeted when I started (an early 20s physics un= dergrad who wrote basic python and wanted a good LaTeX editor), I think I w= ould be minimally happy with CUA mode with some basic AUCTeX setup. Maybe, = some of the minimal options would be easy to flesh out?


Thanks,
Praharsh




On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 9:24 AM G=C3=B6ktu= =C4=9F Kayaalp <s= elf@gkayaalp.com> wrote:
On 2020-09-09 17:18 +03, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> The reason we didn't put these on the splash screen is because we = have
> a menu bar, where everyone can find these popular commands without the=
> need to read any instructions.=C2=A0 Who will not know nowadays that t= o
> open a file, one need to click on "File" and look in the men= u that
> drops down from that?

It looks like some of the starter kits / distributions are disabling
menu and toolbars.

We might ask them that they at least don=E2=80=99t disable menu-bar-mode by=
default if that=E2=80=99s the case.


--
=C4=B0. G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp / @cadadr / <https://www.gkayaalp.com/<= /a>>
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