Hello, I've been an emacs user for ~3 years. While I'm now used to the defaults, I do remember in some detail, the pain it took me to get used to the keybindings in vanilla emacs . I think the sore points other than the undo/redo, were C-f not being bound to find, (though that would need remapping forward-char), C-o not being bound open file. I do think it might make sense to poll on reddit. and again to clarify _(I don't think any of these ideas would break backward compatibility, but instead only add options to increase familiarity with vanilla emacs for new users)_ @yuan I was following the threads earlier and I checked the idea of a profile was suggested https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-04/msg02032.html, I think a starter wizard could go well with this as a base for keymaps at least if you're thinking about implementing it (?). The other thing I was thinking was maybe you could write directly to init.el with use-package with comments in an understandable manner following the discussion about custom here https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg00306.html. I think this would teach and encourage users to tweak their configurations which I think would be a win-win. I would be willing to contribute some time to this. Thanks, Praharsh On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 2:31 PM Yuan Fu wrote: > > > > On Sep 8, 2020, at 2:48 PM, Göktuğ Kayaalp wrote: > > > > > >> I think everybody would agree on attracting more people to use > >> Emacs—that means more blogs and help, more contributor, etc. And > >> people agree that Emacs isn’t as beginner-friendly as it could be. The > >> problem is what to improve, and how. > > > > Not necessarily. Personally, I don’t see much benefit in trying to > > appeal users that have no background in coding whatsoever, and users who > > wouldn’t really benefit from what Emacs has to offer. > > > >> As the first step, we should collect real experiences from real > >> beginners: someone starts to use Emacs just recently (e.g., less than > >> one year). > > > > The major problem is that someone who fiddled with Emacs now and > > couldn’t make use of it may think differently when a couple years later > > they have some knowledge of programming (not necessarily professionally) > > and some experience with other tools. > > > > Anecdotally, I’ve picked up and quit Emacs multiple times before I > > decided to stay with it. And it’s been more than 6 years now that I’m > > using it for the good part of my computing. What was puzzling and weird > > to me back then is useful and essential to me now. > > > > What I mean is, what is good for newcomers, who are not guaranteed to > > stay, can be irrelevant, not so good, or even off-putting to actual > > users of this package of software. Emacs is a power tool, and like all > > power tools, requires two preconditions to be useful: 1) the user should > > *need* the tool, and 2) the user should be willing to put in the time to > > learn the tool. And a good power tool is designed with user who need > > and use them the most in mind. > > > > IDK. IMHO, we shouldn’t break stuff in Emacs itself, and maybe promote > > distros for people that want a more "modern" experience instead. They > > don’t have the backwards compatibility baggage of Emacs so they will do > > it better than Emacs core nevertheless. > > > > -- > > İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp / @cadadr / > > pgp: 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427 > > > > I generally agree with your point. However, what I have in mind is not > changing defaults, but rather a configuration wizard, that can prompt user > and let him select from Emacs binding vs CUA binding, Emacs undo vs simple > undo/redo, themes, etc. I’ve seen such wizard in Intellj Idea, Spacemacs, > etc. Something like (just an example): > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Set UI themes: > > > > - [ ] default > - [ ] dark > - [ ] ... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Keybinding notation: > > C (control) Ctrl > M (meta) Alt/Option > s (super) Windows/Command > S (shift) Shift > > Set keybinding style for copy/paste: > > [ ] default > > M-w Copy > C-y Paste > C-w Cut > > [ ] alternative > > C-c Copy > C-v Paste > C-x Cut > > > [Next] [Skip] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > [ ] Enable line numbers > > [ ] Use thin cursor > > [ ] Disable tool bar > > [ ] Disable scroll bar > > > [Next] [Skip] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Emacs has a powerful (but possibly unintuitive) undo system, where > undo operations themselves are recorded in the undo history, and redo > is done by undoing an previous undo operation. > > Set undo style: > > [ ] default > > C-/ Undo > > [ ] linear > > C-/ Undo > C-? Redo > > [ ] alternative > > C-z Undo > C-S-z Redo > > > [Next] [Skip] > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Additional packages: > > [ ] Company > > Popup completion. > > > > [ ] Ivy > > Completion for opening files, executing commands, etc. > > > > [ ] Expand-region > > Incrementally expand selection. > > > > [ ] Which-key > > Shows possible keybindings. > > > > [Finish] You can re-run this guide by M-x beginner-guide RET > > > Yuan > > > >