From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:45:27 -0700 Message-ID: References: <48ed4897-356c-4669-a330-1fdb5d65402b@default> <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cd7a7e05af4a705d" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33693"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: EMACS development team , Juri Linkov To: tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 14 20:46:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHtUe-0008ds-7U for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 20:46:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:43392 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHtUd-0004ig-AD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:46:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36868) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHtTx-0004ET-A4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:45:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b]:38198) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHtTv-0000J3-HK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 14:45:41 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com with SMTP id s19so631790ybc.5 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:45:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WN1vCBipZdr0y7Germ3CnOhDQPILJp/ED4vtqyQUpfw=; b=hKJQ7wwd5G/f2Ms4PNybiChRpllni1On9KwKNFCPWbaR/s+SvZgiopZbP85WhC2RJ3 BXLL/+QkXo0eX0XoqM3FJZ2c6Yycad/tzHgsYVlpDgVKATPnoeL4kcNT/keatul7pKuC mdLlNIZh4tohd44qHoKTeFSO3u1TQ5r306fcnL4kavC/eBXyqw5KdJzDSQaPq7CSHf3f TTiGrLCbehSQJDTCC1w6dgJbh6+yUrUGTldfn0wEFupip8XWbXDREpmphmUFLr73rFB6 YNJzp8Ij5fS/Tgo8Ncr1rosfL+nSYJbx2xvfh8eoi7DyK1Upxxu4whpfs07b+peXpcc+ EUkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WN1vCBipZdr0y7Germ3CnOhDQPILJp/ED4vtqyQUpfw=; b=O5os5XyT3AHyG6UFJl+1KzXi3gHsoNJ+3J3iKu4ogULJiIXWOfglnhBeLySGqjD80K eirYejWEctdxzjsiwSMRwV38wbBxkO1xn1o+6cTIPsIKOCwPl0C1tvvhqOeUaKiwhUv2 OX6BpZrykRdtudhP+goYm5I4Zo9/N5eqAJ//+rdxAWl3XpxxjXtZ/LOXUwZ3CVkiu4zF uXaYneTcbF1yzWi+T+iZePs47Ealj6G89K2KdjJxdF+tR0j+J93akPhmAwQfUOZZkO4d YlxKtFnRKCZnaTsvhFvlcOlbOWhzYoBY1CQwRnU5OSv5LgZfnbYBjSTuvCi6+VLEptDO 0HWg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531DoyC1KXc3Osnw6i9Pdm/L5c6Zt+18ZJwU2+0BXYw+E48BUqDp 4skrRXD05xtRs/BfI/BElqziZEg86jeJBKFR5XHtw0MqDH3nWg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyELczpGYQqVLOh3aJVSywwtw91bjaHVznqEwZVoqnFxnC8DGtXXVTcQkiL7WbsXpt0/kMohmg6xuSHhU8t7J4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:8248:: with SMTP id d8mr23374055ybn.246.1600109138507; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:45:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255683 Archived-At: --000000000000cd7a7e05af4a705d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 3:31 AM wrote: > But the argument "it's more popular, so it must be better" is too naive, = I > think. > As conversations progress, details get dropped because context builds up. That said, I think it's important to realize that "it's more popular, so it must be better" isn't the argument that brought up this (current wave of this periodically-recurring) discussion; rather, the argument is "people try emacs but go (back) to VSCode, because ...". Usually, that sentence ends in some form of "it's much easier/more intuitive to get started" or "it's quick/easy/obvious how to get it to 'it just-works'". In other words, the popularity is a symptom, not a cause. It's worthwhile to remind ourselves of this now and then, but it's not the central thrust of the original argument (even if it is sometimes used as evidence for subsequent points). Similarly, this point: On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 3:59 AM G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp wrote: > We=E2=80=99re asking "why people aren=E2=80=99t coming to Emacs in hordes= " too much, > when "why are people using Emacs in the first place" is the more > important one. The argument that started (this wave) is more about how and why people `bounce off of Emacs' so often. While there are always new people with unique viewpoints, I have personally seen many, _many_ potential emacs users (including programmers, scientists, and other professionals who very much understand the concept of investing time in mastering tools) try emacs, and give up, often very quickly. This has been happening for decades -- For example, way back when I was an undergrad, I used to work user support for students, faculty, and staff. Emacs was the default text editor, and still we saw lots of people try emacs and give it up for other choices, even when those options were known to be less powerful, buggier, and not officially supported. My point here is not to call anyone out in the discussion, but to remind (reassert?) that Emacs' "approachability" has always been a concern, and that issue has gotten more intense as the baseline of computer familiarity and competence has increased dramatically. This issue doesn't concern "market share" or "general popularity", although that has some obvious upsides -- it's about the large numbers of people who understand that Emacs should be especially interesting to them, and invest some effort into trying it, and don't get very far. In addition to the fringe benefits of network effects, there are a bunch of potential hackers, maintainers, porters, documentation writers, editors, and the like that bounce off of emacs. I think it's clear that it would be very helpful to the project to have more of those people bounce off less quickly, at least. Hope that helps, ~Chad --000000000000cd7a7e05af4a705d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 3:31 AM <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
But the argument "it= 9;s more popular, so it must be better" is too naive, I think.

As conversations progress, details get dropped= because context builds up. That said, I think it's important to realiz= e that "it's more popular, so it must be better" isn't th= e argument that brought up this (current wave of this periodically-recurrin= g) discussion; rather, the argument is "people try emacs but go (back)= to VSCode, because ...". Usually, that sentence ends in some form of = "it's much easier/more intuitive to get started" or "it&= #39;s quick/easy/obvious how to get it to 'it just-works'".=C2= =A0

In other words, the popularity is a symptom, n= ot a cause. It's worthwhile to remind ourselves of this now and then, b= ut it's not the central thrust of the original argument (even if it is = sometimes used as evidence for subsequent points).

Similarly, this point:

On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 3:59 AM G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com> wrote:
We=E2=80=99re asking "wh= y people aren=E2=80=99t coming to Emacs in hordes" too much,
when &= quot;why are people using Emacs in the first place" is the more
imp= ortant one.

The argument that started (this= wave) is more about how and why people `bounce off of Emacs' so often.= While there are always new people with unique viewpoints, I have personall= y seen many, _many_ potential emacs users (including programmers, scientist= s, and other professionals who very much understand the concept of investin= g time in mastering tools) try emacs, and give up, often very quickly. This= has been happening for decades -- For example, way back when I was an unde= rgrad, I used to work user support for students, faculty, and staff. Emacs = was the default text editor, and still we saw lots of people try emacs and = give it up for other choices, even when those options were known to be less= powerful, buggier, and not officially supported.

= My point here is not to call anyone out in the discussion, but to remind (r= eassert?) that Emacs' "approachability" has always been a con= cern, and that issue has gotten more intense as the baseline of computer fa= miliarity and competence=C2=A0has increased dramatically. This issue doesn&= #39;t concern "market share" or "general popularity", a= lthough that has some obvious upsides -- it's about the large numbers o= f people who understand that Emacs should be especially interesting to them= , and invest some effort into trying it, and don't get very far. In add= ition to the fringe benefits of network effects, there are a bunch of poten= tial hackers, maintainers, porters, documentation writers, editors, and the= like that bounce off of emacs. I think it's clear that it=C2=A0would b= e very helpful to the project to have more of those people bounce off less = quickly, at least.

Hope that helps,
~Cha= d
--000000000000cd7a7e05af4a705d--