From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GUI X-FreeDesktop integration Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 11:49:25 -0700 Message-ID: References: <7f52af92-4fb5-74b4-232a-eabfa315ac0@froglet.home.mavit.org.uk> <8335u9bsc5.fsf@gnu.org> <983c9c1-668f-4b82-896-9d41abfef910@froglet.home.mavit.org.uk> <834ken80xt.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005999d405c368564f" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26255"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Peter Oliver , EMACS development team To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri May 28 20:50:51 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lmhZJ-0006cj-U8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 28 May 2021 20:50:50 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45380 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmhZH-0000lS-Px for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 28 May 2021 14:50:47 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48996) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmhYD-0008JI-AA for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 May 2021 14:49:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]:45644) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmhYB-0004JN-HQ; Fri, 28 May 2021 14:49:41 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id v5so6475575ljg.12; Fri, 28 May 2021 11:49:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bKaDr2b6OUy0cFtDXALsfjuQdHWUShdPurhBqcwPujA=; b=Di2u/xfeiCrdye5mXc/GEQUZMQE53LzFCJvhccuf/AqwfLdtcojoddrEBZbGQk/9JV QL+jB3MVV9qAvbZfzhlR+TKqtYJIOZnHnA4UisvHJGrJ2VixLgQMXJUPzRX3P9tgm1Z5 hEneuxrWRX9/s4O8CNuHAawovXPDbpzd3UjTs3T6ldcM0XCkWSuR4vJ65Hpq70tAl9M0 2KscQU1zdwSmoIZvG1zgpXk9OpZRWXFNDJELcOZpeY5wg8v+6ay5qih6Gj1fQQCDu+sm LVmRqxrUwCwO7vJj0KjT+DxIkjm1IARUF9PcTrMorv4EwVX2zON6CMi1kyd2r67LNHtJ zBFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bKaDr2b6OUy0cFtDXALsfjuQdHWUShdPurhBqcwPujA=; b=kanCOgDI1gtugtftOYX/z9qo19cVvtxvaG73mqhKPwyeMdK8o27WznSpxNp9uXMpW6 Hc3mA9VSm8COS7L56DV/fCZtfH61BFGGbtgOtnvdxSs9Hy9Py6hWFlfed2+tAl5oTr0y rdwcBXzoxG3Ywb0SzEqzF/WLOd9bhgnkjK7LH5RKj6lU38SqF75SyMU9goVIMrb/nosw 0gdBG2s5KIZKAFmWU5ObYLHScoj4qnoxIbPve1N97HlvtSxcy/dYBhnyrPHXMczUg1Wu dqvHBOhXNt6OjBfQXq271sBg3ajonDzz3J44sXCd+eOWQjpETra1FdPflHUptyENv86m nm6A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530A8uQfEhNO7qyxUz20HFAesow+valrrDF3Ge0gFNS+j622zZnA kr+ASnHgB44finsMB8wqgxKPi9pGeRAWPNDaBfomXmkD X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyemLd+MrR7LBHhfbpguHXDgUnb6Wukg125KZ7hck6fAj8IFW4hRDtavvcWKw4xiRI5/tjXPl9Iv39f0Ep+wQ0= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:b610:: with SMTP id r16mr7378778ljn.486.1622227776279; Fri, 28 May 2021 11:49:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <834ken80xt.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::22a; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x22a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:270015 Archived-At: --0000000000005999d405c368564f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 6:04 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > So, we can say that users who mostly launch things by clicking on icons > in their desktops will be likely to expect things to work this way. > Conversely, it seems reasonable to worry less about catering for people who > do not have this expectation, because we can infer that they rarely click > on the icons. > > I don't see how you can make that conclusion with such certainty. Not > all the applications behave in that way, so it's quite possible that > people don't expect every application to do it. Thus, it isn't a > catastrophe that Emacs behaves like it does, and like it did until > now. > My experience with a spread of users who use gui launchers of this sort is that they expect exactly what Peter suggested, and find the current behavior to be obviously broken. I mention this because that feedback is uniform, to the point that people pass around their own home-grown versions of the change suggested here, and they uniformly replace the emacs gui launcher entry, rather than supplement it. Multiple times, I have seen this exchange prompted by a feelign of disbelief that emacs "still can't open new windows instead", followed by the home-grown alternatives. Another common variant is people claiming that Emacs is "incompatible" with gui launchers, with a similar "it can, but you have to fix the defaults" reply. Of course, this is all anecdotal, and it's a little old at this point as I've had very little exposure to a wide user-base in the past year-point-five, but I suggest that this is a good use of the "try it for a while and see" strategy rather than the "ultra-conservative" approach. To be more specific, it seems pretty easy to make the standard behavior the default, and include an option that retains emacs's older behavior, and see which the distros prefer. We could also try asking them directly, if we think we have enough contacts there. Since you asked for opinions.... I suspect the issue is relatively niche. Several years ago, when I was heavily involved in supporting a large user base (MIT students, faculty, and staff), the fact that clicking the launcher-app multiple times got multiple separate emacsen was considered a bug that got reported relatively frequently. The people who wanted multiple isolated emacsen were after very specific outcomes, knew how to get there, and (for the vast majority) weren't using the gui launcher to get there. My instinct is that many people are in that same situation today, but I might be wrong about that. Hope that helps, ~Chad --0000000000005999d405c368564f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 6:04 AM Eli Z= aretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> So, we can say that users who mostly launch things by clicking on icon= s in their desktops will be likely to expect things to work this way.=C2=A0= Conversely, it seems reasonable to worry less about catering for people wh= o do not have this expectation, because we can infer that they rarely click= on the icons.

I don't see how you can make that conclusion with such certainty.=C2=A0= Not
all the applications behave in that way, so it's quite possible that people don't expect every application to do it.=C2=A0 Thus, it isn'= t a
catastrophe that Emacs behaves like it does, and like it did until
now.

My experience with a spread of use= rs who use gui launchers of this sort is that they expect exactly what Pete= r suggested, and find the current behavior to be obviously broken. I mentio= n this because that feedback is uniform, to the point that people=C2=A0pass= around their own home-grown versions of the change suggested here, and the= y uniformly replace the emacs gui launcher entry, rather than supplement it= . Multiple times, I have seen this exchange prompted by a feelign of disbel= ief that emacs "still can't open new windows instead", follow= ed by the home-grown alternatives. Another common variant is people claimin= g that Emacs is "incompatible" with gui launchers, with a similar= "it can, but you have to fix the defaults" reply. Of course, thi= s is all anecdotal, and it's a little old at this point as I've had= very little exposure to=C2=A0a wide=C2=A0user-base in the past year-point-= five, but I suggest that this is a good use of the "try it for a while= and see" strategy rather than the "ultra-conservative" appr= oach. To be more specific, it seems pretty easy to make the standard behavi= or the default, and include an option that retains emacs's=C2=A0older= =C2=A0behavior, and see which the distros prefer. We could also try asking = them directly, if we think we have enough contacts there.

Since you asked for opinions.... I suspect the issue is relatively = niche. Several years ago, when I was heavily involved in supporting a large= user base (MIT students, faculty, and staff), the fact that clicking the l= auncher-app multiple times got multiple separate=C2=A0emacsen was considere= d a bug that got reported relatively frequently. The people who wanted mult= iple isolated emacsen were after very specific outcomes, knew how to get th= ere, and (for the vast majority) weren't using the gui launcher to get = there. My instinct is that many people are in that same situation today, bu= t I might be wrong about that.

Hope that helps,
~Chad

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