From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GUI X-FreeDesktop integration Date: Fri, 28 May 2021 13:05:30 -0700 Message-ID: References: <7f52af92-4fb5-74b4-232a-eabfa315ac0@froglet.home.mavit.org.uk> <8335u9bsc5.fsf@gnu.org> <983c9c1-668f-4b82-896-9d41abfef910@froglet.home.mavit.org.uk> <834ken80xt.fsf@gnu.org> <83mtse7jox.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000076a80005c36966d6" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="34050"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Peter Oliver , EMACS development team To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri May 28 22:06:43 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lmikl-0008kB-7Y for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 28 May 2021 22:06:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33316 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmikk-0001AV-84 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 28 May 2021 16:06:42 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39114) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmijs-0008NN-4s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 28 May 2021 16:05:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]:46910) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lmijo-0002ef-GT; Fri, 28 May 2021 16:05:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id i9so6934254lfe.13; Fri, 28 May 2021 13:05:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aPAnIt2GixJwAzd7ynX7jwdpbuGL4BQqgTJfyhkmQ1U=; b=Ct9495M/iwNmj1N9Y7ljNniRiCzk3DlhoFgbZP2S5EgdOOsvdGZbY/Vu0UJJmosuBI iQAqRijp5J+JjMq7daM3Zu91GbvwOcPf/G5FC87HN6sLK9ZUthQ4TX51fkVajLdLCHtq VNygrWvI+AkdXgOl2+cEec0id/H8NVQ6uY+u1+uH4syNjzseCjOgcyggEuMDqDgFQFD7 V18tuZEDuuMLtwDM7+mXjRh0cbQ5mqbtTONj3qxAaclyCae4XMNYVCkYJYsx6ikGXCRS f5V6EORSfCIUWrjVzG03tlcIBoefYu1teYehDtbzZ+VZ7WWVz/bBYZzUIGaZLA23c8s/ FosA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aPAnIt2GixJwAzd7ynX7jwdpbuGL4BQqgTJfyhkmQ1U=; b=C5MnCdJH0L2BCUOx+bDMsQTIExgPK2CmKtQlbmUS8zU8JBeLOdD6v6l+POiPe2Llb2 /orkv3OFDjmm6CweSTg19Ir76d6gefNKlXiTAjB3wiyBOqBjrwP6o9qLyN1GmdCvW5Yr lvOSqfZwGTAikqJ2iqkjj6B9I50e2d9SpGKTlD104Sew1VgnX+nS9Xpgovh6GuldZdpv q0Qhj1BqysAEh+UP2LJPGZbPSKxWXbJPmJ8HlPC6A6s5kwGZH/XRLgYYotuUuRJUyshO Bm0tCv3ep4CfxNNLZMAQzgeFB2fcDQjbjh2ILVkc1vMSjIKQDc6ikrLBM64GMXBgE8th 4tEA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532M3CfYdC9gQmQbpw33Q8ZFZVgkFlO3b3qdQR/vDe10KxvnFc2T cq29oRi+HXyWn3qqYRyfMZOq9PDtReK5OigB5czhNKeb X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz5RVaHSzravnrC+1RtjQtRPyRGHYZ0jmkC1Ex593tVMCn7gECXWUZ+CI4kGguP2D0tHpbB14neO6OsAhDKvb4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3d13:: with SMTP id d19mr7007097lfv.307.1622232341586; Fri, 28 May 2021 13:05:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83mtse7jox.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12d; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:270022 Archived-At: --00000000000076a80005c36966d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:16 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > I suggest to do this the other way around: make this new behavior > optional, until we are sure people expect that. > [...] We shouldn't bend our thinking > like that, just because we see some trend in other applications and > think we can easily follow it with something similar. > Sure, the conservative approach works here also. What I was suggesting was basically "let's give the distros both options and ask/see which they pick". Since we're generally sensitive to changing defaults on releases, I think there are ways to ask before releasing, but the data collection is likely to be sparse. > > > Since you asked for opinions.... I suspect the issue is relatively > niche. Several years ago, when I was heavily > > involved in supporting a large user base (MIT students, faculty, and > staff), the fact that clicking the > > launcher-app multiple times got multiple separate emacsen was considered > a bug that got reported relatively > > frequently. The people who wanted multiple isolated emacsen were after > very specific outcomes, knew how > > to get there, and (for the vast majority) weren't using the gui launcher > to get there. My instinct is that many > > people are in that same situation today, but I might be wrong about that. > > Then please explain to me why the time it takes Emacs to start is > still such a hot topic, on Redit, help-gnu-emacs and elsewhere. That > clearly indicates that people do start Emacs many times, instead of > having a single long-running session. > Speaking to my past experience: people would end up with multiple emacsen running, and if they ever noticed that fact, it was the opposite of what they wanted. Lack of shared state like confusing history and accidentally using old code because of unsaved changes in a separate emacs were common complaints, performance concerns were even more common. To the "startup time discussion" point, though, I think the current discussions are a mixture of debating with history (ala "we use vi because emacs is giant and slow"), people switching contexts frequently (rather than reusing the same session on the same machines most of the time, also exemplified in the people who use TTY emacs in gui sessions rather than display-juggling and/or tramp; especially common among people using containers, VMs, etc), and people who fall into the trap created by the default use pattern starting new emacsen rather than reusing an existing one. A small percentage of them end up restarting emacs frequently because they frequently rebuild it -- something that I know is too painful for you, Stefan, and Richard to do often, but that I see happening several times a week. Put another way, I think you've identified a symptom of the problem that the change is intended to fix. Many (most?) of the people I talk to in that situation are pleasantly surprised to learn that there is a not-so-complicated way to fix it. For example, I have personally talked to multiple people with complicated AppleScript setups designed to fix this problem, and generally made them happy and occasionally chagrined when I tell them that what they now want is 'emacsclient -c -a ""'. ~Chad --00000000000076a80005c36966d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, May 28, 2021 at 12:16 PM Eli Zare= tskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
=
I suggest to do this the other way around: make this new behavior
optional, until we are sure people expect that.
[...] We shouldn't b= end our thinking
like that, just because we see some trend in other applications and
think we can easily follow it with something similar.
=
Sure, the conservative approach works here also. What I was = suggesting was basically "let's give the distros both options and = ask/see which they pick". Since we're generally sensitive to chang= ing defaults on releases, I think there are ways to ask before releasing, b= ut the data collection is likely=C2=A0to be sparse.
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> Since you asked for opinions.... I suspect the issue is relatively nic= he. Several years ago, when I was heavily
> involved in supporting a large user base (MIT students, faculty, and s= taff), the fact that clicking the
> launcher-app multiple times got multiple separate emacsen was consider= ed a bug that got reported relatively
> frequently. The people who wanted multiple isolated emacsen were after= very specific outcomes, knew how
> to get there, and (for the vast majority) weren't using the gui la= uncher to get there. My instinct is that many
> people are in that same situation today, but I might be wrong about th= at.

Then please explain to me why the time it takes Emacs to start is
still such a hot topic, on Redit, help-gnu-emacs and elsewhere.=C2=A0 That<= br> clearly indicates that people do start Emacs many times, instead of
having a single long-running session.

S= peaking to my past experience: people would end up with multiple emacsen ru= nning, and if they ever noticed that fact, it was the opposite of what they= wanted. Lack of shared state like confusing history and accidentally using= old code because of unsaved changes in a separate emacs were common compla= ints, performance concerns were even more common.

= To the "startup time discussion" point, though, I think the curre= nt discussions are a mixture of debating with history (ala "we use vi = because emacs is giant and slow"), people switching contexts frequentl= y (rather than reusing the same session on the same machines most of the ti= me, also exemplified in the people who use TTY emacs in gui sessions rather= than display-juggling and/or tramp; especially common among people using c= ontainers, VMs, etc), and people who fall into the trap created by the defa= ult use pattern starting new emacsen rather than reusing an existing one. A= small percentage of them end up restarting emacs frequently because they f= requently rebuild it -- something that I know is too painful for you, Stefa= n, and Richard to do often, but that I see happening several times a week.<= /div>

Put another way, I think you've identified a s= ymptom of the problem that the change is intended to fix. Many (most?) of t= he people I talk to in that situation are pleasantly surprised to learn tha= t there is a not-so-complicated way to fix it. For example, I have personal= ly talked to multiple people with complicated AppleScript setups designed t= o fix this problem, and generally made them happy and occasionally chagrine= d when I tell them that what they now want is 'emacsclient -c -a "= "'.

~Chad
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