From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:46:37 -0700 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <83zhb6grtq.fsf@gnu.org> <83ftcwgb07.fsf@gnu.org> <291bb5b2-92d5-85f1-57d8-895eed14ffc2@yandex.ru> <837dy7fyeg.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006a8a5e05a3e4b72a" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="122526"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: EMACS development team , seb@k-7.ch, Dmitry Gutov To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 22 19:54:45 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJa8-000VjI-8I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 19:54:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55326 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJa7-00067l-AM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:54:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40482) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJSY-0006bw-Bc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:46:55 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJSX-0004xG-Lk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:46:54 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b]:39166) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRJSU-0004dq-H6; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 13:46:50 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com with SMTP id h205so1623968ybg.6; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:46:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SCR74Yf0QPRrGr4EE9ayXwlUAs7FbbZ+/TYxh+Af7IQ=; b=HMU6zNg4x+k4qznwg0S8mGFREseSPqECtg99xb5aijgpAnp38CH+4k4oJGFBhF+0bg EzSP7+9qMHI9BnVbQBnQrCv3j8eflPMfDACtDs7ttZZ0qIOs0KphJ11rBLdwVramBeam +Khe1UtbX1MfHQKPYTlIFACpbIRHB8apMPS3T0S6vPlaCjxlFB/Q2DjTaKHbqj6pKKQt /EH9x3lSZ78B2DkGP338qfJfcPuvhqh38R6f/W+UbfTchhXS+8q0FYDjCMVIpbepmyz/ PZLK19l6Bsc7QZEtF12gL2KGm5fQ43JpUmnkhLLQaFb4OpqFilHUoamopYFonATqSOz+ S07A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SCR74Yf0QPRrGr4EE9ayXwlUAs7FbbZ+/TYxh+Af7IQ=; b=ePXAMczeFjbWeND2cS0YYUBO2GZ8W1JEBgwRvWnKKGRSBVbZ0Q5QORZ9tiUfoGYdxR dWQTUkEZ0r1M900VZhmF97xJNPuK7am560IZn8tAzNP/Yelwlvoc+pDF/OSDE2pHrHKl KaCmRftF5wKHIoziRUF+7SnOunb81IsEATp0wxOCCihN1eK5Ipj0AI8z846/5gmQcDFt beGMJY1ErP3h679Lv0lRHhSp6juD2wNUFchODsac9XOvUVDdvKC3L7pXV6zxtxVRoqPF OjnFkWgleH6myHZuy79Um9QnyQIL0XL7RMETBk6v/wizaTgv5gnE8NiK0kvZkSU7I1nB r6lQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuahXS6A2qT6aDXOn71c/q9ndxlerJnbi62o5AiW8whj0euLiOPa otoHQzWmyY0AKqd3/NuBpzydMNfbSlZ03urqjgVr3ClbFV5lEQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypIPe3oxhgSZGl9bbUIuKWxxn1mzaKUf6EY0VILx1YiURKtEy3qitaJIyWLek+s1sH+UyWTc3p+/3s+f/VaNP1g= X-Received: by 2002:a25:4409:: with SMTP id r9mr37109103yba.469.1587577608635; Wed, 22 Apr 2020 10:46:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <837dy7fyeg.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2b.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247538 Archived-At: --0000000000006a8a5e05a3e4b72a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 6:27 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > From: Dmitry Gutov > > Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:35:48 +0300 > > > > > Does this mean users who download this "shiny Emacs" will be unable to > > > upgrade to a newer version? > > > > The pre-configuration could contain just one line: > > > > (require 'shiny-settings) > > > > where shiny-settings.el is distributed with Emacs and is updated > > together with new releases. > > So we expect users not to customize their Emacs, as long as they use > the "shiny Emacs"? What are the chances of that to work? > Spacemacs, Doom, and Prelude (to name just three of the more popular options) all make this work out-of-tree, so it certainly seems possible. >From my reading, the first two (at least) are strongly expected to be customized after installation, and to have those customizations survive updates of the "kit". Spacemacs in particular adds a "layer" concept to emacs customization so that bundles of related options/code/packages/config can be turned on or off as a group. Details can be found at: https://www.spacemacs.org/doc/LAYERS.html. I would personally hope that we could streamline this process, which seems pretty bulky from the outside. Maybe inviting the Spacemacs people to share their experience that led to creating their layers system would be helpful to us both. (I would have CC'd them onthis message, but their team seems to be heavily based around github (pull requests, gitter sharing, etc.), so it's not obvious to me whom to contact. I can look into finding a contact if people think it's worthwhile. ~Chad --0000000000006a8a5e05a3e4b72a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 6:27 AM Eli Zaret= skii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Cc: emac= s-devel@gnu.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 2020 04:35:48 +0300
>
> > Does this mean users who download this "shiny Emacs" wi= ll be unable to
> > upgrade to a newer version?
>
> The pre-configuration could contain just one line:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (require 'shiny-settings)
>
> where shiny-settings.el is distributed with Emacs and is updated
> together with new releases.

So we expect users not to customize their Emacs, as long as they use
the "shiny Emacs"?=C2=A0 What are the chances of that to work?

Spacemacs, Doom, and Prelude (to name jus= t three of the more popular options) all make this work out-of-tree, so it = certainly seems possible. From my reading, the first two (at least) are str= ongly expected to be customized after installation, and to have those custo= mizations survive updates of the "kit".

= Spacemacs in particular adds a "layer" concept to emacs customiza= tion so that bundles of related options/code/packages/config can be turned = on or off as a group.=C2=A0 Details can be found at:=C2=A0https://www.spacemacs.org/doc/LAYERS.h= tml. I would personally hope that we could streamline this process, whi= ch seems pretty bulky from the outside. Maybe inviting the Spacemacs people= to share their experience that led to creating their layers system would b= e helpful to us both. (I would have CC'd them onthis message, but their= team seems to be heavily based around github (pull requests, gitter sharin= g, etc.), so it's not obvious to me whom to contact. I can look into fi= nding a contact if people think it's worthwhile.

~Chad

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