From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "Why is emacs so square?" Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:08:13 -0700 Message-ID: References: <8wXYP4GY9hwW-9mYv6_LGMETZ8Vz3Ob1Bec6yh6kPT7yxjTkxA3V6dXY4ELra9tYiJUxJmgXKSIEX4w8HFiPRoeGVSQHDSoBVy1voj1e3Qo=@protonmail.com> <83lfmxgt6c.fsf@gnu.org> <83zhbcg6s4.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f2d97505a359e0d9" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="55463"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , EMACS development team , Richard Stallman , ndame@protonmail.com To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 15 22:09:16 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jOoLS-000EHy-Mb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 22:09:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54634 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jOoLR-0001cI-Oa for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 16:09:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34019) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jOoKq-0001Am-Ks for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 16:08:38 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jOoKo-0007oF-FM for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 16:08:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb41.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b41]:35924) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1jOoKg-0007m2-6Y; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 16:08:26 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb41.google.com with SMTP id n188so708283ybc.3; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:08:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DGfFPf7a0WTBp4jXxY6rinTAUwXeWjb3iQgYMrc/Bso=; b=eOyvR9QT5PU6wXY0BqZ8JmAbdOjCD2WOgd79mzNfwMkvxOqpDUfFamoBIWlu7fWCiI XkTtt+lui0mGEf08pAnCGDxkjITG5YskzYJzAi8y9hnWs21CfccpI8uitwRb/zMaTUS+ x2cVAHFOY7r2nWnpw8AaFrA7+lb3xrN9vfzpfyeJws6nmoXCoKahCCIVwphHVtE7SEeE QZw7DP34lhOdj/IBQ8mp6PubovoRQbdfMdXoI/4P3RCx49oDZ3+auOasoISyHHqGw+Tc lbIObAEK24XQkYGhh8WRmf5wB+Kx9FAsHAW7YsH4dXA1RRTsHDcocRrjfaWFFjYp12h4 SUjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DGfFPf7a0WTBp4jXxY6rinTAUwXeWjb3iQgYMrc/Bso=; b=bUm6oQbp2NwOKdV4nKnOs1bjUEMiHnBveYGebtqZEHleUftm3RLnha4HWzx9Issp4B nqSjGOle4Zmfk3tO8KQtQziiIvfj/9eYKRVEoZtEleJWdRG2Tm4gkmBVMpB8fmeC+K4a jGZw4eU8y5Q686XuzB0HlKA0H+CkQFj6Wf9/FNlimayTbIRZqFjbGo7rl2aRC/u2rpsz aJtwjeI98nEXWq4/yQyua5Bmz/uknO+ODhGHjdNba7obGWq9V68rU68913uIVBdqiVe5 XuAOQHJsfCtR3wiqs68T2igSjJ4LmnUTE6luTjUV8g3DxYjOStzt9gHOLJgT9lOVmICo okOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubeOcfb4SYDU1EX9mwnfeervmqJhzDTTZafPxTs87h51mJLYmZe NtIo/3LZ9L6XhL2z80Gw2bSHzO7NA8nIVFBSSEc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLYmfnNLd4/y8LjECt4MFCGHjvUKhObSb1sDVAlcyyKh/zZtZvBvWY+oZvaCHkLACb4iCVhWEfaONrLQh58UCg= X-Received: by 2002:a25:b21e:: with SMTP id i30mr10151142ybj.502.1586981304980; Wed, 15 Apr 2020 13:08:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247053 Archived-At: --000000000000f2d97505a359e0d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" For the original poster, because they might be used to running primarily a distribution-installed version of emacs: the code for unix-based GUIs has supported a variety of these sorts of elements for a very long time, depending (currently) on whether you build emacs with the Athena, Lucid, Motif, Athena3D, or gtk[,2,3] toolkits. Under macOS, one has the ns and mac ports, and under MS Windows, it uses the local gui toolkit (which I believe is the core W32 look and feel, not the frequently-shifting WPF, Windows Forms, Metro, UWP, etc. standards). Even within these systems, there are options inside emacs for giving buttons a 3D look or not, and there are many packages that add icons to emacs' display (via fonts, as far as I can tell) that can 'spiffy up' emacs considerably. It would probably be helpful for emacs' adoption if some of these gui enhancements could be added to emacs and/or ELPA more directly. To be specific, it would perhaps be helpful for emacs new-user adoption if people didn't feel the need to adopt a large integrated package like Spacemacs or DOOM emacs just to get graphical niceties -- not because those bundles are bad, but because they add a *lot* more than just the gui enhancements. The past couple years has seen a bit of an explosion of packages like better-defaults or "starter kits" that aim to improve the new-user experience without such a large overhead, but those still require getting emacs from somewhere other than GNU or the standard distrubutions, which is an extra hurdle. I would be happy to help with such an effort, but I'm unsure what sorts of changes would be acceptible to "core emacs", and I don't personally have anything major to add to the existing set of third-party starter kits or mega-bundles. If someone here had a clearer idea, that would be helpful. Maybe the first step is to try to get all-the-icons ( https://github.com/domtronn/all-the-icons.el) or an analogous package included in emacs? Hope that helps! Thanks, ~Chad On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 10:16 AM Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 15.04.2020 17:31, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > >> I think the difficulty here is to look "contemporary" and yet fit every > >> platform Emacs is run on. Button widgets look different on each. Even > >> between GUI toolkits. And change between releases. > > > > There are only 2 variants: native buttons (provided by some toolkit) > > or the ones we draw ourselves. And there's no requirement that they > > all look the same, I think: they should have the look-and-feel of the > > toolkit being used. > > These are implementation options. But either the "ones we draw > ourselves" are designed to fit each platform, or they looks the same > across platforms, with our personal look. > > The latter option is sometimes taken by professional applications in > which the user spends most of their time (e.g. Blender, or at least some > of it earlier versions that I've tried). > > >> The other option, of course, is to look both modern and unique, but it's > >> a harder proposition, especially without a graphical designer on the > >> team. And this stuff gets outdated quickly. > > > > I think "modern and unique" is a contradiction of terms nowadays ;-) > > In principle, I disagree. But it's difficult, and it's a balancing act, > of course, between having them look distinct and interesting, but still > familiar enough, and not too "tacky" (meaning, a design too exotic can > become an eyesore after a while). It's a problem that bigger companies > put whole design departments on. > > --000000000000f2d97505a359e0d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For the original poster, because they might be used to run= ning primarily a distribution-installed version of emacs: the code for unix= -based GUIs has supported a variety of these sorts of elements for a very l= ong time, depending (currently) on whether you build emacs with the Athena,= Lucid, Motif, Athena3D, or gtk[,2,3] toolkits. Under macOS, one has the ns= and mac ports, and under MS Windows, it uses the local gui toolkit (which = I believe=C2=A0is the core W32 look and feel, not the frequently-shifting W= PF, Windows Forms, Metro, UWP, etc. standards).=C2=A0 Even within these sys= tems, there are options inside emacs for giving buttons a 3D look or not, a= nd there are many packages that add icons to emacs' display (via fonts,= as far as I can tell) that can 'spiffy up' emacs considerably.=C2= =A0

It would probably be helpful for emacs' adoption= if some of these gui enhancements could be added to emacs and/or ELPA more= directly. To be specific, it would perhaps be helpful for emacs new-user a= doption if people didn't feel the need to adopt a large integrated pack= age like Spacemacs or DOOM emacs just to get graphical niceties -- not beca= use those bundles are bad, but because they add a *lot* more than just the = gui enhancements. The past couple years has seen a bit of an explosion of p= ackages=C2=A0like better-defaults or "starter kits" that aim to i= mprove the new-user experience without such a large overhead, but those sti= ll require getting emacs from somewhere other than GNU or the standard dist= rubutions, which is an extra hurdle.

I would be ha= ppy to help with such an effort, but I'm unsure what sorts of changes w= ould be acceptible=C2=A0to "core emacs", and I don't personal= ly have anything major to add to the existing set of third-party starter ki= ts or mega-bundles. If someone here had a clearer idea, that would be helpf= ul. Maybe the first step is to try to get all-the-icons (https://github.com/domtronn/all-the-= icons.el) or an analogous package included in emacs?

Hope that helps! Thanks,
~Chad

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020= at 10:16 AM Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@ya= ndex.ru> wrote:
On 15.04.2020 17:31, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> I think the difficulty here is to look "contemporary" an= d yet fit every
>> platform Emacs is run on. Button widgets look different on each. E= ven
>> between GUI toolkits. And change between releases.
>
> There are only 2 variants: native buttons (provided by some toolkit) > or the ones we draw ourselves.=C2=A0 And there's no requirement th= at they
> all look the same, I think: they should have the look-and-feel of the<= br> > toolkit being used.

These are implementation options. But either the "ones we draw
ourselves" are designed to fit each platform, or they looks the same <= br> across platforms, with our personal look.

The latter option is sometimes taken by professional applications in
which the user spends most of their time (e.g. Blender, or at least some of it earlier versions that I've tried).

>> The other option, of course, is to look both modern and unique, bu= t it's
>> a harder proposition, especially without a graphical designer on t= he
>> team. And this stuff gets outdated quickly.
>
> I think "modern and unique" is a contradiction of terms nowa= days ;-)

In principle, I disagree. But it's difficult, and it's a balancing = act,
of course, between having them look distinct and interesting, but still familiar enough, and not too "tacky" (meaning, a design too exoti= c can
become an eyesore after a while). It's a problem that bigger companies =
put whole design departments on.

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