From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert README.org to plain text README while installing package Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 15:26:28 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87h74ztshe.fsf@gmx.de> <871qw31ois.fsf@yahoo.com> <8735gj4ceo.fsf@gnu.org> <87ee038ipt.fsf@gmx.de> <87o7z61v59.fsf@gmail.com> <87bkv527p5.fsf@gmail.com> <835yld93w7.fsf@gnu.org> <877d5t0yrn.fsf@gmail.com> <87y1y8yvlh.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004a2e2305e0f4af45" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10535"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Mackenzie , EMACS development team To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jun 08 21:27:41 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nz1LA-0002Vo-SA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 21:27:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57760 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nz1L9-0004kO-G6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 15:27:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39600) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nz1KH-00044r-Pn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 15:26:45 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x134.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::134]:45890) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nz1KF-00075c-OQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 15:26:45 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x134.google.com with SMTP id c4so2649511lfj.12 for ; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 12:26:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WTwKZDUDl6qWp5R+uvT2SpifkVHXe5v6qdZsUkjpdsc=; b=XgZsYko2uo2t0SLQjkqLgo+0FTyjk5H0gkyqdEiM27qy3xqG/+un2WOER8cnO9b1iy xL4ly3Tlv1iVHpd1CtdiUkabPt7WJVObmNEs08PVBerxZddBqERsyHqpjnIwWrfkLxg1 ICZXp1+PECCIWaP7GTRjFbJ2ObpB5i+EViTwTGjhCGgIPE+lv//2H6wExiBtkISa1SvN Q04u+3u+dVYWnUZV3/bJ+tMBn5+VEt2ip2U/MXu8Q+fwSbIrLPcW9EtEDY+c5OfHmDeB HQ3YzABOrFlLllPrt05ss1x/v46yD5MfiN3woosHNdXzxqMrbvc7lOXE7Hc+KQaGgu4v MWEA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WTwKZDUDl6qWp5R+uvT2SpifkVHXe5v6qdZsUkjpdsc=; b=eht7zTW2jkeUFSMbp4tcYExhHVHQ+Vlv/rk1H+q3Z4uICVjK9AOsDv7UmiwnfVeitE r5tSddVkEH0HPGVBUbcguV2GopUF09F8ai+tR9hUsZQL3gMyiuoUa9xRyOM1flt9VHYl mrhrLrGaHvfIHylLwx7TQbDyvCPxNKgFSJlt2jvCBEJY5tjw474OvBxyWowCy4R+jFCF Aovqi4T7pFLBnLkgXiY3bK5XHCzWbtZqz+KTuUCHMW5Wsf8eQKXuNn/PS5nB3wIeeu/8 6bDtHTlRxWiaOx4/K7OiMj35UTbrVsWTOF1MncHxIzFTjSQ1Xle9T4Nwx++0YLBpsvFr Q9sQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533nb3rxH/bkjE8LFqubMeotSc76t1gvfwjxQGiTeQW8mij2kNIe wBObMRDTPznOC44KunHLhIv3Gb1n79NW65da/LE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxTOOjUfEPXQJtAGifSIJJaAmMn0J/pJac2RQOl6QYMRPFU0at07VfZg//gdfOang94u5F8dJPOOO1yYcsD3r8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:400a:b0:479:9ed:a71b with SMTP id br10-20020a056512400a00b0047909eda71bmr23499679lfb.488.1654716401068; Wed, 08 Jun 2022 12:26:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87y1y8yvlh.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::134; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x134.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:290953 Archived-At: --0000000000004a2e2305e0f4af45 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 7:04 PM Tim Cross wrote: > So going back to my original post, which was simply saying that > implying you would get 784 additional key bindings just because you open > an org file was misleading because you simply don't get that many > additional key bindings when you open an org file - in fact, you get > only about 1/3 of that many. > I'll add to this statement: the vast majority of those keybindings aren't relevant when viewing a read-only org file, which is what we're talking about here. In fact, I used Org (very lightly) for a few years with exactly these two extra keybindings: Control-Return and Meta-Return. I also used Tab to expand/compact headings, so perhaps three, depending on your usage (I was coming from outline-mode, so this wasn't new.) This is a read/write usage, not a read-only usage. Everything else is basically the same. There are a few places where Org changes the meaning of keys to accommodate Org features, but most of these are DWIM-ish adaptations, or they're guarded by an Org warning that Org uses the keys for something else (for example, shift-selection). A few years in, I discovered that Org would automatically reflow the plain-text tables I sometimes used, and I learned another use for the Tab key; as near as I can tell, this feature had been present for months if not years without ever bothering me. These days, most of my work involves creative writing and light number crunching, not coding; as part of that, I use dozens of text files over several active topics. I keep these in a simple hierarchy of plain Org files. These load in emacs instantaneously. I search through them using standard text-searching tools (mostly find and grep, sometimes trying out things like fd, ack, ripgrep, and deadgrep). I once started reading the Org manual (several years ago) and bounced off pretty quickly; I haven't been back in years (although I hear that the manual has improved quite a lot since then, and it's on my overly-long todo list for "someday".) I say all this not to try to convince anyone to try Org; in fact, if you're not already using outline-mode a bunch, then you're probably only interested in Org if there's a specific use that you'd like for emacs (agenda, note-keeping, literate programming, etc). That said, there are people, especially elisp package authors, who use it and like it and will continue to use it to write package documentation. In the (few) packages that I personally load, most have a README.org, a few have a README.md, and none have a plain README. Put another way, this isn't about encouraging authors to use Org or not; the authors have chosen already. For people who don't really want to try to "learn Org": I hear and understand. I've been there myself; time is usually rarer than interesting ideas to explore. I'm writing this in the hope that it encourages people to not be afraid of looking at .org files even if you don't have the time, interest, or inclination to "learn Org", because while the ocean is indeed (seemingly?) quite deep, the shallow end is quite comfortable. In the meantime, we can all hope that the arrival of the "modular Org" is sooner rather than later. Hope that helps, ~Chad --0000000000004a2e2305e0f4af45 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, Jun 7, 2022 at 7:04 PM Tim Cross = <theophilusx@gmail.com> = wrote:
So going = back to my original post, which was simply saying that
implying you would get 784 additional key bindings just because you open an org file was misleading because you simply don't get that many
additional key bindings when you open an org file - in fact, you get
only about 1/3 of that many.

I'll a= dd to this statement: the vast majority of those keybindings aren't rel= evant when viewing a read-only org file, which is what we're talking ab= out here. In fact, I used Org (very lightly) for a few years with exactly t= hese two extra keybindings: Control-Return and Meta-Return. I also used Tab= to expand/compact headings, so perhaps three, depending on your usage (I w= as coming from outline-mode, so this wasn't new.) This is a read/write = usage, not a read-only usage.

Everything else is b= asically the same. There are a few places where Org changes the meaning of = keys to accommodate=C2=A0Org features, but most of these are DWIM-ish adapt= ations, or they're guarded by an Org warning that Org uses the keys for= something else (for example, shift-selection). A few years in, I discovere= d that Org would automatically reflow the plain-text tables I sometimes use= d, and I learned another use for the Tab key; as near as I can tell, this f= eature had been present for months if not years without ever bothering me.<= /div>

These days, most of my work involves creative writ= ing and light number crunching, not coding; as part of that, I use dozens o= f text files over several active topics. I keep these in a simple hierarchy= of plain Org files. These load in emacs instantaneously. I search through = them using standard text-searching tools (mostly find and grep, sometimes t= rying out things like fd, ack, ripgrep, and deadgrep). I once started readi= ng the Org manual (several years ago) and bounced off pretty quickly; I hav= en't been back in years (although I hear that the manual has improved q= uite a lot since then, and it's on my overly-long todo list for "s= omeday".)

I say all this not to try to convin= ce anyone to try Org; in fact, if you're not already using outline-mode= a bunch, then you're probably only interested in Org if there's a = specific use that you'd like for emacs (agenda, note-keeping, literate = programming, etc). That said, there are people, especially elisp package au= thors, who use it and like it and will continue to use it to write package = documentation. In the (few) packages that I personally load, most have a RE= ADME.org, a few have a README.md, and none have a plain README.=C2=A0
=

Put another way, this isn't about encouraging autho= rs to use Org or not; the authors have chosen already. For people who don&#= 39;t really want to try to "learn Org": I hear and understand. I&= #39;ve been there myself; time is usually rarer than interesting ideas to e= xplore. I'm writing this in the hope that it encourages people to not b= e afraid of looking at .org files even if you don't have the time, inte= rest, or inclination to "learn Org", because while the ocean is i= ndeed (seemingly?) quite deep, the shallow end is quite comfortable. In the= meantime, we can all hope that the arrival of the "modular Org" = is sooner rather than later.

Hope that helps,
~Chad
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