From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 19:17:51 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <20200906170753.nyrdqgmj7p4koxg4@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d2ed405aeafd4cb" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17185"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Ergus , =?UTF-8?Q?Elias_M=C3=A5rtenson?= , "Alfred M. Szmidt" , emacs-devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 04:18:45 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kF6k1-0004NP-9R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 04:18:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60862 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF6k0-0001dG-Ai for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 22:18:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34752) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF6jP-000169-At for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 22:18:07 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]:35776) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kF6jN-0001M4-Ew; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 22:18:06 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id s92so8482695ybi.2; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 19:18:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sQsKTVxgGciPLHRqL0LPL0tWghJTaoOGTMLZupB67BI=; b=eXM4j+J4xXgK65am23eScAX1ClzKKTobEnm/cXRTjkOGASlcZ30qwLYKUrCmH652PT IlZDSz6/ZbihTq7UsUQpt7cHNmQFfbqZlKL9dRbSLUaFJcXL4pAUSmOWrBPFwZC2v8eW YKKfi1bWMqMau6MBP0QpVtwbR2CauSyV7MWBsDP0CkCSEC2nCSYmMBcub6y3cqyGghoj U9oQJedHSzeHq5mO+ol8CuC+C4LW4i7jnyODX7hvaN4P9hbbasbUdmny4AwLaRXopNvt 8HTrh8d8Xd4HpCrz+LmvfOY3qRbgPdxyGmOua+4kTXujcxDK3rYxtmQMLoGrgggxG8jO f7EA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sQsKTVxgGciPLHRqL0LPL0tWghJTaoOGTMLZupB67BI=; b=SZgs6I8h2HGoSResLdGJV0BQ+iUkFmi9XZjLukouBhLRn3h3USpadVAhT4aYKxFvbA QohAdzndIvg1sgA6sO8yZEYHS1eDUwtuFzXg1YqGt05lppb1cNkUmvszHY3pIOWwJiMf OsEqyOIsRod47y+XgN8bG+DDwRor7W6vXylQqDKuZWnv1AieME34TXDmcsVdVNCMEl5Q AfrAQ3E9sdpeVdl9fVYhXGzQDLhpTWdbMDzbYzboo3F+1zSZ80asqQOyG1mjjJ948oIP wbYwNfAMNtlEJnRd/C6RMuLu35DJoyK2bkTuHzakvhaqnSteqnOC/kytAxvIQ6xpPie0 mAVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533bWJ8+s2GqcMa7te+QhPR5/wOKVXVB9kO5uHVVdTKaFCWgmj3v O7KwMcLoA27/zf9JP6jFHr/iNvFfixyvlHZXlQA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyOkO5eBMGT9XAgMjDi7nxaQ4i4iTRLUDqWGsROvY7/9DfXNiX4tzh59ZoVPxfkOuhgAjrlJjpCZAe4gLalw5Q= X-Received: by 2002:a25:5381:: with SMTP id h123mr5545861ybb.413.1599445083695; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 19:18:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254605 Archived-At: --0000000000000d2ed405aeafd4cb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 06.09.2020 20:07, Ergus wrote: > > Your link is basically a set of personal opinions with not concise > > arguments at all against the "popular" keys that support dark mode use. > > Here's a more serious overview of related research: > https://ux.stackexchange.com/a/53268/136203 > > Spoiler alert: light mode wins. > It's been a while since I dove into the research around this, but from this thread it seems to still be the case that context makes a large, in many cases overriding difference. From that link: For applications which provide long-form reading (books, articles, even > news sites), dark mode options are recommended. Many of those studies are concerned about visual acuity in very short-term tasks -- correctly reading text that appears and disappears quickly, such as alerts or notifications. It also notes that matching the background to the environment (light in bright rooms, etc.) is key for sustained reading. There's more research these days on glancing at small, very-hi-res screens, which is nice (and unsurprising), but probably isn't all that helpful for typical Emacs use (if there is such a thing as "typical" Emacs use). This doesn't seem to be the sort of issue that's going to be resolved with a clear "objectively better in most cases" argument, and Emacs has very clearly declared (for decades) its conservatism towards UI changes, so we're probably better off not painting this particular bikeshed. That's my opinion, at least. I do think Emacs' new user experience could be improved by adding some options/actions on display-splash-screen, though, and I'd be happy to help with that. Hope that helps, ~Chad --0000000000000d2ed405aeafd4cb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 11:33 AM Dmitry Gu= tov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:=
On 06.09.2020 2= 0:07, Ergus wrote:
> Your link is basically a set of personal opinions with not concise
> arguments at all against the "popular" keys that support dar= k mode use.

Here's a more serious overview of related research:
https://ux.stackexchange.com/a/53268/136203

Spoiler alert: light mode wins.


It's been a while since I dove into the research around this, b= ut from this thread it seems to still be the case that context makes a larg= e, in many cases overriding difference. From that link:

=
For applications which provide long-form reading (bo= oks, articles, even news sites), dark mode options are recommended.= =C2=A0

Many of those studies are conc= erned about visual acuity in very short-term tasks -- correctly reading tex= t that appears and disappears quickly, such as alerts or notifications. It = also notes that matching the background to the environment (light in bright= rooms, etc.) is key for sustained reading.

There&= #39;s more research these days on glancing at small, very-hi-res screens, w= hich is nice (and unsurprising), but probably isn't all that helpful fo= r typical Emacs use (if there is such a thing as "typical" Emacs = use). This doesn't seem to be the sort of issue that's going to be = resolved with a clear "objectively better in most cases" argument= , and Emacs has very clearly declared (for decades) its conservatism toward= s UI changes, so we're probably better off not painting this particular= bikeshed.=C2=A0

That's my opinion, at least. = I do think Emacs' new user experience could be improved by adding some = options/actions on display-splash-screen, though, and I'd be happy to h= elp with that.

Hope that helps,
~Chad

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