From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 22:36:26 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87fs169mjj.fsf@posteo.net> <093f11a1-57c2-5e56-d39b-26fef1c67cbb@gutov.dev> <25942.25061.217864.329049@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> <87zfzdcz6z.fsf@posteo.net> <763f067b-4ca9-1eba-9f3c-424c38589e9c@gutov.dev> <87v89ht2s4.fsf@linux-m68k.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000041412f060bbaf12d" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="21697"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Andreas Schwab , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Dec 05 04:37:13 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rAMFD-0005Ng-LD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 Dec 2023 04:37:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rAMEq-0004Oq-6N; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 22:36:48 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rAMEo-0004OQ-2B for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 22:36:46 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rAMEm-00080G-4w; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 22:36:45 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12e.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-50bf69afa99so2239655e87.3; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 19:36:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1701747400; x=1702352200; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=RAqs4F2sQvThF3rhdRVaDq8v50YDk5GfnwE4TCjw8IY=; b=hskMAVQRRyq6hya/SVby3jYMUg30428aJp8bTC+hKa18NGXovQAN65cPscjr+X65dF 5vM+kYkVzQBQryEJA6o0P+i/CTzMmPmxyCKkZCUM5mB2w6D9SyU73wdVawG9tuUSTbC2 XKsiUaSBMWb2JYw070QF/D9xxANkT9ai0AnFIbK8aWixGg5IHoErsVqGu+nRTIsTNF94 6LUX2xD09qzREOa/d9/X0lBfV5wxRq5nk00F2LU79d/Of4bzEZG7l8LOXLcQPV2vdCmB 8RZvMVYJVd0NY8CPBZfsViRNfZvVV7uCYGr2i01XyWdWHmVgSEZv8H/1MzGOcOUifFCI dkXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1701747400; x=1702352200; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=RAqs4F2sQvThF3rhdRVaDq8v50YDk5GfnwE4TCjw8IY=; b=sftS8snrqCiTO5VYJTX/WPiCzPrdsz7iKII33zeN8BGLdt6iucsgepv8eP+XL/RNtr loJcpAYXMYPbG8u1vCNdDmdU0Cz/r+/UY0iWspz/D6Wr/dzJ7OVmpx7qk0EkeMPxzA0n +N7D2DKDtcU7g3cE1t2eP05AoqtCoOLhEBW9G7f5az22a+Jfxqdx6CWZAG/IUpjKONRN cZt/YWqLWooWoyWVjOA8u+MI0XrXYXZAOp7US3vqh40iSt+w5luJHwWrnY/JMtapKxYy Ct/GkiT3Axi2R4xG9O3MKyJNkGW0rfAqtGc1AYC9UDp9q2M1eJUu4M7XhVnWmHXJg4Lx dNSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzqDvBQY2iD1kg0JMnGz2kpVi5FNahWzKkEtxtD/ySijaTx7tC6 krr22pQcbYhI5WkRpvZFr0KswIpHyK17+EMMhbafRMdTGU8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFWH/hpuA3kbSN+PEs4QOsne8ZGdIwB9rI0h8+V1YAlCXY+z0t26puKCxBCbc2SFvvVXHKRK6mWjwtLjvj9ilo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:39c7:b0:507:c9d5:39a9 with SMTP id k7-20020a05651239c700b00507c9d539a9mr4126175lfu.52.1701747399670; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 19:36:39 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12e; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12e.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:313533 Archived-At: --00000000000041412f060bbaf12d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 9:59=E2=80=AFPM Richard Stallman wrote= : > > > confusing. I know what dotted pairs mean, but I was not sure what > > > they meant in pcase patterns. > > > They don't mean anything. It's pure lisp syntax. > > I explained why I found it hard to understand that example. > > Your response to my explanation is to argue with it. [...] > I understand your point, and I don't disagree, but I do see another viewpoint that also makes sense to me: that the misunderstanding is not in the place that is being discussed. (In other words, that this is largely an issue of mis-communication.) The particular point that *I think* was being expressed but not effectively communicated is this: The example was cited as a place where pcase's use of special syntax lead to confusion, but this the example doesn't use any special pcase syntax. This doesn't remove the problem, but if it's correct, then it suggests that the problem is perhaps more accurately described as "pcase makes some experienced Lisp programmers so unsure about special syntax that they worry it might be present where it is not". This could be a general problem with any programming language, but is perhaps especially relevant to Lisp. Coming back to the particular potential disagreement: > I explained why I found it hard to understand that example. > > Your response to my explanation is to argue with it. I *suspect* that the "argument* you see is not an attempt to tell you that your explanation is wrong, but rather to suggest that the misunderstanding might not be where you thought it was. (You are certainly correct that the example was hard for you to understand, but you may or may not be correct about the reasons.) I hope that helps, ~Chad --00000000000041412f060bbaf12d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, Dec 4, 2023 at 9:59=E2=80=AFPM Ri= chard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote= :
=C2=A0 > &g= t; confusing.=C2=A0 I know what dotted pairs mean, but I was not sure what<= br> =C2=A0 > > they meant in pcase patterns.

=C2=A0 > They don't mean anything.=C2=A0 It's pure lisp syntax.<= br>
I explained why I found it hard to understand that example.

Your response to my explanation is to argue with it. [...]
=

I understand your point, and I don't disagree, but = I do see another viewpoint that also makes sense to me: that the misunderst= anding is not in the place that is being discussed. (In other words, that t= his is largely an issue of mis-communication.)=C2=A0

The particular point that *I think* was being expressed but not effectiv= ely communicated is this:

The example was cited as= a place where pcase's use of special syntax lead to confusion, but thi= s the example doesn't use any special pcase syntax. This doesn't re= move=C2=A0the problem, but if it's correct, then it suggests that the p= roblem is perhaps more accurately described as "pcase makes some exper= ienced Lisp programmers so unsure about special syntax that they worry it m= ight be present where it is not". This could be a general problem with= any programming language, but is perhaps especially relevant to Lisp.

Coming back to the particular potential disagreement:<= /div>

> I explained why I found it hard to understand= that example.
>
> Your response to my explanation is to argue = with it.

I *suspect* that the "argument* = you see is not an attempt to tell you that your explanation is wrong, but r= ather to suggest that the misunderstanding might not be where you thought i= t was. (You are certainly correct that the example was hard for you to unde= rstand, but you may or may not be correct about the reasons.)
I hope that helps,
~Chad

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