From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs Survey: Toolbars Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:33:53 -0800 Message-ID: References: <87o8iv3ac3.fsf@gnus.org> <56d1484e-6f41-575f-0fbb-fd2bd99ab152@yandex.ru> <87eejqnlxk.fsf@gnus.org> <3156f8b8-1db1-1858-95c3-16d213c2353a@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007aaca105b69ba20c" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39587"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , Emacs developers , Dmitry Gutov To: John Yates Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 16 22:35:16 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpeS3-000AAP-Cs for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 22:35:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39006 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpeS1-0002z5-CN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 16:35:13 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52018) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpeQz-0002Al-I2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 16:34:09 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a]:45716) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpeQx-0001M7-F2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 16:34:09 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com with SMTP id k78so23824912ybf.12 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:34:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=A5IhSZ1dfcqyVGitgW1wyeypSaKqEnpGOjQRQttuv1Q=; b=QHDITMuVW6L7UkhupJh4mSt/0s6V1FNJkdM9ldReQ38R1Q6I0xxGIFGCaZxm4CsBI1 hP7zAG3qLvwGxqbM22Z8q70eVJ/Gw754xU1OM6GG7reuGS0GdyVOoEML5Ip5MAO31tKA 34/Rj1tVgoIGSqls6uIB+zDMDJ9zPft5Rz+hkrEqaAsm+95P/XDGbbhQGIEf8bdrDd9J ESZZuPD4LpMo5PSVtwhh5Zkv8yYHC1WuZxawte5yLrx5F+nGRAzMOBSGNbiPg5JoKImg FfYvxC4DgsbQge9rqpdXBZk1OZH+UE+9FVPstHc2LhfDnjR0cFWNX1cB614xZs50s9EW IJOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=A5IhSZ1dfcqyVGitgW1wyeypSaKqEnpGOjQRQttuv1Q=; b=MMtg7Tcmi8y3Ao+CkmICm+xWIHy/TCXMHCRiUhKxiuMAMO9ocdD8YclS6D2OYxMP19 cNuT/XGQt8kBVs/+g2pWPr6geiCjbDWRyOa13Ioy8SPquuFBMLqZUN6yLmDqIXBuNthw BW2gHTTZM7oVZUGbHTNayyZV/c/RFg8NpNlTf9ixTvmxDBjRQkorvzRbWeAZZluueyEX jaGWs6SlwMXYIFub/d94uKB79m5J/8zGq9TLRrs/hOGj+jkAkgxfBt6XjBahoU7queMg zjk6yHJi4MJQ0WnRwumInnbgPHWft/nGyohUq7uGTNJvApb6u5U8UFORG6/BfDsgTtTn CBSA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533d4EqmTv4ANYAOPbJwTHF2cC2rGHfT37nHiDQMBcTNFGAbOv6+ PMTEyuoSkQ1LUDZxAC+m4iaEbKdsuURsTgir938= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJVMgvEp8OxkQoExdSwqFLem7F6W2P8DTvGejsneP+V7w2xKktn3nyV1xaHrclLQn0Vc1iTV0mdYm4FXCwHsU= X-Received: by 2002:a25:ac03:: with SMTP id w3mr51120924ybi.135.1608154445686; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 13:34:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2a; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:261069 Archived-At: --0000000000007aaca105b69ba20c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:12 PM John Yates wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:20 PM Dmitry Gutov wrote: > > > But OTOH we have other buttons (New file, Open, Undo, Cut and Paste) > > that a lot of users expect from a text editor. > > My sense is that such buttons made sense when a smaller fraction of the > population was computer literate. These days I would expect them only > on the most simplistic of editors, those still addressing absolute > beginners. > I think this expectation is solid, but there's a wrinkle: If the toolbar is largely aimed at helping new users make use of emacs, then having an obvious way to do common functionality that _doesn't use the common bindings_ seems like a good use of toolbar space. Now that the buttons advertise the emacs bindings for these functions in a new-user-friendly way, they're potentially even more helpful, since they both provide a clear way to save/cut/copy/paste/undo, and they also teach the default emacs bindings for same. To this end, I'd suggest adding a button to the default toolbar that launches a short tutorial (in a new frame on gui systems), that talks about these common actions/bindings, with a next-step link describing why emacs uses these bindings and how to change them. It should also have an option to remove the tutorial-launching button from the toolbar. I can probably put together a prototype of this if people would like, and I recall some pieces of similar ideas floating around emacs-devel in the past 6-8 months. Would this be interesting to people? ~Chad --0000000000007aaca105b69ba20c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Dec 16, 2020 at 12:12 PM John Yat= es <john@yates-sheets.org&g= t; wrote:
On Wed= , Dec 16, 2020 at 12:20 PM Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> wrote:

> But OTOH we have other buttons (New file, Open, Undo, Cut and Paste) > that a lot of users expect from a text editor.

My sense is that such buttons made sense when a smaller fraction of the
population was computer literate.=C2=A0 These days I would expect them only=
on the most simplistic of editors, those still addressing absolute beginner= s.

I think this expectation is solid, b= ut there's a wrinkle: If the toolbar is largely aimed at helping new us= ers make use of emacs, then having an obvious way to do common functionalit= y that _doesn't use the common bindings_ seems like a good use of toolb= ar space. Now that the buttons advertise the emacs bindings for these funct= ions in a new-user-friendly way, they're potentially even more helpful,= since they both provide a clear way to save/cut/copy/paste/undo, and they = also teach the default emacs bindings for same.

To= this end, I'd suggest adding a button to the default toolbar that laun= ches a short tutorial (in a new frame on gui systems), that talks about the= se common actions/bindings, with a next-step link describing why emacs uses= these bindings and how to change them. It should also have an option to re= move the tutorial-launching button from the toolbar.

I can probably put together a prototype of this if people would like, an= d I recall some pieces of similar ideas floating around emacs-devel in the = past 6-8 months. Would this be interesting to people?

<= div>~Chad

=C2=A0
=C2=A0
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