From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 17:00:13 -0700 Message-ID: References: <831ro2tqqx.fsf@gnu.org> <4a1fd3f4-df92-c756-9874-4d07b54148ac@yandex.ru> <3bd09dca-dcdc-7569-e5fb-f6b53397af9d@yandex.ru> <83pnbjokdt.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b8095405a4db550c" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="93359"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: EMACS development team , Stefan Monnier , =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= , Richard Stallman , Dmitry Gutov To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 05 02:01:38 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVl1m-000OC3-4A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 05 May 2020 02:01:38 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44202 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVl1l-0006cs-2E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 20:01:37 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39988) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVl0q-00067p-CC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 20:00:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2f]:45359) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVl0m-0000jg-GK; Mon, 04 May 2020 20:00:39 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com with SMTP id r14so330278ybm.12; Mon, 04 May 2020 17:00:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3gH1Ip8WKbkEq/VATauLxyeO4C4qanKjsqL/Gh/eTo4=; b=swAYa9t69GXdiw3E0XPB2xDO0e4Sf0LR/y8aviH0kO7E+oI+Ae/x4Dhl6CaBBrE54P IvE+ld+COaFbFLuwrgX4Ph1CCiN5EAK46bcDq2jOIeFBaAHAP42lBEQ1yx1bvexc/cDy KSJOARfhYgaxlNHA73wypYegam0lNmiDXGMokVtkTh+a0uvEKj5cFYc2ygJNGIqwcezU VM5ofJpzg29c1FNMw1WZzCLOCNuNV22w2oCPtZJ13+6fhhR8PUW+MdlehmEq+7qY+IQZ kixcMrAJSL/p29iyzSo8YX8hIZLg+J7fYiaLYhRIYJJQrdOPyyyU24e4I5mb43odSz7M dDFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3gH1Ip8WKbkEq/VATauLxyeO4C4qanKjsqL/Gh/eTo4=; b=qWbE77CUD+G+Ayu46IAnkij8/v/Hci3jiPimgRgUxPPRnHjng20xqJzrkqNBEJJ1V2 cDjw+rkl+CfIq1uC2coWUPoq+EjL6Q5sjAYlJg8TAr9cznuSSLdz9GTegWm1nMMrpaot icIrtQzEiSIl0EwZ61oeFSwWTT7kOBdEAu5aE7ks3vRAvnwe4VEMmJ7sBWDEwB3zcCnV mO8nhNhtHCUZaJbJ6wuG05/jtzYEaSGvQme/ZlgbzPUVYvgqpQBmbp19gXSFhmSF9mTd dJjKNAH8VCID12raBLu3Ez/nc+LaRqkBZLO5RBB1kEHk40x6lTstNcUOaNk99M4gv4kw 3taQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuYxe9ce7Q0Ov0PakXM41MwW4lJEysVgKvWE3O+p3idYlztbJlNc MCXHGSwzMKMydewX5ZPctfaDOzOVenxqkLjJzRVVCceH X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypK/ZvFGDXgGCLECZTk+4kGofNgqCludnqe5FemRXoUJfFtLkN0xZPy+Pdu8iMPtpq/umG+kujG0gSihkVsCmu4= X-Received: by 2002:a25:664d:: with SMTP id z13mr613576ybm.457.1588636826469; Mon, 04 May 2020 17:00:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83pnbjokdt.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2f; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248920 Archived-At: --000000000000b8095405a4db550c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 7:16 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: chad > > Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 17:12:00 -0700 > > Cc: Dmitry Gutov , emacs-devel , > Eli Zaretskii , > > Richard Stallman , Stefan Monnier < > monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> > > I think that it's fair to say that it currently leans away from the > method that a large > > number of new coders are demonstrating that they prefer. The question is > if and how far emacs is willing to > > change to adapt. > > IMNSHO, it's inaccurate, and even somewhat unfair, to claim that Emacs > doesn't adapt. Nowhere did I "claim that Emacs doesn't adapt". I asked, in a very specific context that you quoted, if and how far emacs is willing to change to adapt (to "the method that a large number of new coders are demonstrating that they prefer"), since it is already adapting (in many, many ways). I will also claim that emacs-devel, as evidenced by this discussion, at least somewhat resistant to change. Resistance to change is a very common attribute, especially of older systems, systems that value stability, and systems that value history -- all of which, I think you and I agree, is true of Emacs/elisp/emacs-devel. It is not a fault, although it can be pushed to an extreme that becomes a fault. In many contexts, it is a strong virtue. For one example, search for Jamie Zawinski's comments on "The CADT Model". I hope that makes my point clear. And, because I haven't said it in a while, thanks again for all that you do for emacs! ~Chad --000000000000b8095405a4db550c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 7:16 AM Eli Zarets= kii <eliz@gnu.org&= gt; wrote:
> = From: chad <yandr= os@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 17:12:00 -0700
> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <= ;eliz@gnu.org>, >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontrea= l.ca>
> I think that it's fair to say that it currently leans away from th= e method that a large
> number of new coders are demonstrating that they prefer. The question = is if and how far emacs is willing to
> change to adapt.=C2=A0

IMNSHO, it's inaccurate, and even somewhat unfair, to claim that Emacs<= br> doesn't adapt.=C2=A0

Nowhere did I &quo= t;claim that Emacs doesn't adapt". I asked, in a very specific con= text that you quoted, if and how far emacs is willing to change to adapt (t= o "the method that a large number of new coders are demonstrating that= they prefer"), since it is already adapting (in many, many ways). I w= ill also claim that emacs-devel, as evidenced by this discussion, at least = somewhat resistant to change.=C2=A0

Resistance to = change is a very common attribute, especially of older systems, systems tha= t value stability, and systems that value history -- all of which, I think = you and I agree, is true of Emacs/elisp/emacs-devel. It is not a fault, alt= hough it can be pushed to an extreme that becomes a fault. In=C2=A0many con= texts, it is a strong virtue. For one example, search for Jamie Zawinski= 9;s comments on "The CADT Model".

I hope= that makes my point clear. And, because I haven't said it in a while, = thanks again for all that you do for emacs!
~Chad
=C2= =A0
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