From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [External] : Re: POLL: make C-x o transient Date: Thu, 4 Feb 2021 11:24:06 -0800 Message-ID: References: <2EFBBE54-62F4-4373-82D6-DC8750B648BA@kuaishou.com> <87eei9xb5r.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <87sg6m5mjs.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <8735ykc37u.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <938445fec66b0cdb0c4e@heytings.org> <87y2gchcpm.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000513b0605ba87a6b1" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17302"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Mackenzie , "Philip K." , Gregory Heytings , Drew Adams , EMACS development team To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Feb 04 20:37:14 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l7kRG-0004OI-Gv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 20:37:14 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44736 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l7kRF-0007o9-EU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 14:37:13 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51516) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l7kEp-00030Q-H6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 14:24:23 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]:44722) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l7kEn-00083E-B7; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 14:24:23 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id r2so4288096ybk.11; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 11:24:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=orgQ+NKhSg/3yw109teKl0nOM2c5d+WD5hYZEz23Ngk=; b=KUROLQEvKq9TE4w3nqD+XYfdAliAZqfoJEVdH2FCFKEA531iYbqs7W+ENKWduq6Vlb 9pDks3F/5OA5Blls070VpmfmR7Izbt9oRWXkvjPx+cjSuOxNf0Li3ZUFxIz6bDqo2orh ddkzC/IAkke0Tpk8Y9KWiJT3ytpuprTDQhjIHL8GZ5keS77zzDuBuQLgMce7PRNO5e4e 5aKYqD/Uno/L4IkeRU/1LzneD+X/pWvqW0PZ07cus6e9wOAjljCQDnUWB/BVCM1JkgBr 9aY4k5U2VS5+42y4LYCicHAmE0mWDxgZckS7HZn8jXKtckYZZSliGVIb6F7VLJbTtRwe Sq5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=orgQ+NKhSg/3yw109teKl0nOM2c5d+WD5hYZEz23Ngk=; b=nSZFCwC+nzbMAry1+0704otmUWPNw2c38byBd0JOvrXIOso6t82m5d9OCzfFhYmqlX IgAIfYu9Qwi5Fh/PhkamQD8yQPsYxD/rpKOstLp6Vm3B8+S3adUy1jM11eJBdsi/ojGF Vfg+puHJZXnIaYSFNxAi/29UDgwF+PSyG6989WhPLLA19YOxzC6P6mmFsH//O5tndUNt lZvY9uW1i/+lqxXFi6MngLO6NfHzbW8jR2seAUu/HHHeR3UMY9WZGdnqNxmcjSb+19v1 yb9Y8u8i7YPdnKZrbzz2kI2qsH63Pe0XpDuF4p/jurqUfyfD6OmdNyYufZihsXGX4Ow+ wRJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532aRKu6vpXAS4ODRd0wXpULL4gnMHJui4nlalxYtT8l1cyo8JWi nj1V2p7oWRBOpO7BJuXpnUDBe3zbiQhtsoTeWfceKYvekwk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyqBjBNxlFv/3lR7/5uqTaIbNX2VNkL7CeA+t57/QX4PJhmmuh50L2GTO29cgi+zWC2LXRhdeRsrr/auJCsXAA= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2fc1:: with SMTP id v184mr1160594ybv.51.1612466657242; Thu, 04 Feb 2021 11:24:17 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb36.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:263901 Archived-At: --000000000000513b0605ba87a6b1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 9:44 PM Richard Stallman wrote: > > You can look at your own usage after C-x o (even more telling for > people > > who aren't using the mouse or mostly dedicated frames) with > view-lossage or > > via dribble file, but for me, the answer is "because the cursor is > hardly > > ever in the right spot", even though I do use save-place. I would > hazard a > > guess that wanting to immediately insert a period or comma is roughly > the > > same order of commonality as wanting to insert an 'o' (or 'O'). > > That seems plausible to me, and that supports my point: each > self-inserting key that we give a special meaning to after C-x o is > one additional nuisance. > MY own read on it, which continues to be true as my dribble file grows, is that I almost never want self-inserting keys after C-x o; I'm doing cursor movement or window manipulation (including isearch and recenter) the _vast_ majority of the time. I guess that some people want to quickly check something in another buffer before switching back and inserting characters where they left, which gives it a potential of up to half of the time, but from what I can tell, more people these days are doing that sort of pop-out/pop-back via methods that create and then close the outside reference (via tool categories like grep, xref, and eldoc), and most people used to newer tools instead use a completion framework or LSP. All in all, something like Juri's prototype where users can opt commands into using a standardized (and thus learnable) repeatable framework would be an improvement for the vast majority of users who became aware of it, in large part because it's easily opt-in at a granular level. (For example, easily enabled for changing window sizes without impacting C-x o.) ~Chad --000000000000513b0605ba87a6b1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, Feb 3, 2021 at 9:44 PM Richard St= allman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
=C2=A0 > You can lo= ok at your own usage after C-x o (even more telling for people
=C2=A0 > who aren't using the mouse or mostly dedicated frames) with= view-lossage or
=C2=A0 > via=C2=A0 dribble file, but for me, the answer is "because= the cursor is hardly
=C2=A0 > ever in the right spot", even though I do use save-place. = I would hazard a
=C2=A0 > guess that wanting to immediately insert a period or comma is r= oughly the
=C2=A0 > same order of commonality as wanting to insert an 'o' (= or 'O').

That seems plausible to me, and that supports my point: each
self-inserting key that we give a special meaning to after C-x o is
one additional nuisance.

MY own read on= it, which continues to be true as my dribble file grows, is that I almost = never want self-inserting keys after C-x o; I'm doing cursor movement o= r window manipulation (including=C2=A0isearch and recenter) the _vast_ majo= rity of the time.=C2=A0

I guess that some people= =C2=A0want to quickly check something in another buffer before switching ba= ck and inserting characters where they left, which gives it a potential of = up to half of the time, but from what I can tell, more people these days ar= e doing that sort of pop-out/pop-back via methods that create and then clos= e the outside reference (via tool categories like grep, xref, and eldoc), a= nd most people used to newer tools instead use a completion framework or LS= P.

All in all, something like Juri's prototype= where users can opt commands into using a standardized (and thus learnable= ) repeatable framework would be an improvement for the vast majority of use= rs who became aware of it, in large part because it's easily opt-in at = a granular level. (For example, easily enabled for changing window sizes wi= thout impacting C-x o.)

~Chad
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