From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [OFFTOPIC] Free Software (was: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers) Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 16:27:31 -0700 Message-ID: References: <4XvMn7QQudwuCq-3cSOnqK_gBoHnmblv2--PKi2oupbCsZwaxxrzA2Chwb6LEzzg1TYjAJNboC8lwPgw8VA5IhYUBs-Jly9HfTqPtsgZUHg=@protonmail.com> <01502186-69cb-86fb-612e-868068e7a998@yandex.ru> <6e2c9c07-31c4-38eb-c679-7e680f9f02ed@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e8e42905a4c6c232" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="873"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: EMACS development team , Dmitry Gutov , Richard Stallman , Arthur Miller , ndame To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 04 01:28:22 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVO21-00008E-17 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 01:28:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:32966 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVO20-0007Y3-1T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 19:28:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51612) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVO1T-00077R-Dd for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 19:27:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]:40573) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVO1S-0001iu-BT; Sun, 03 May 2020 19:27:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id e16so6061246ybn.7; Sun, 03 May 2020 16:27:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+Jn93tbBXF5GIpJxkRCdPGIY1EUc5+n9mTO4gUIh8bE=; b=Aie+SdQeONCop3Dj15LiBKyed0zR70E7HazN9rKFIZl1K0NVPA30+xp6nLibkG93O6 eJ8wuC+5WzVSON6imwrbONYkyaWgv5r8p/U+TICyxYHu+/IBk5abBTLhR+aoAB/E+z7X /U6VuVu6ViFNWs8SOeWOgSYf1cy1Uxqavzun3bJPNmom3ZYFe73KQ4hIEpu1q27thS4b 2xZ6dTfoR9Jb5MEtLdzIxY59+fz8FarrANRzd8yjgFuQfLB3DlwJq/V+S/t8kEqrMuqo yY66RUTIcJKDojX15RY7Ea11xil5EngATabvUTC3YIKMs3FhR8DFwyL628LuldFQi3WK PGpA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+Jn93tbBXF5GIpJxkRCdPGIY1EUc5+n9mTO4gUIh8bE=; b=t/q6aFXgc8ZzRANnH4KHtMKPMytah/Id2oaG+j12pz+PINOJJZfobbvqfOiYvIv14Q St6ShKoJsxl9UvWgR7UdBAFCKeSv5+p6XeYcYLxzmJYyi4n30RgpZh8LwUbG4HX3LE+4 F6QSwR3BhOxFoXR2NCHB8cWF4DveDbFvFUFZyml9qEHXAHITFbzpRItVzvL6ZxHGDA3i UO0+Z85LgYidpN7rwPd00td7zmsAV5NsjstyW8YulSMZHxYE8sBo4GGghiMH28h99+Rp MtI1gSoJpY1YZWXvmBuMPvTqw6QaAwA/nM/g3pNV84atHCWdiHJSZmAyMoJGobq5iXzn mGNA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZfp6fuyeXYG1lrQHBXQ0tA1wWhTVL2+/ZU0LLJGqt5V2CJmvET 4RCD739p81BYxar6Jj37EuGmr4bDuRLhjwbSuT0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLxvKgzWQe607C37NUL2N56QaOtdn6FnPsR3XIK15J2ulaQNZVRkItBE4fpNAerBRuaoan1QmTa0AKVROT59vc= X-Received: by 2002:a25:664d:: with SMTP id z13mr24353184ybm.457.1588548464074; Sun, 03 May 2020 16:27:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb36.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248748 Archived-At: --000000000000e8e42905a4c6c232 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 2:17 PM Stefan Monnier wrote: > >>> I don't know, but it > >>> seems like both Vi(m) & Emacs have got a revival lately. > >> That's true for FOSS editors in general, though. We didn't have so many > good > >> options before. > > Indeed, seems as a general trend, we have never had so much FOSS > > software in general, not just editos, but everything, from AI research > > to Game Engines, 3D Editors, compilers, libraries, you name it. Seems > > like world has realized power of open source, which is great. > > Sadly, I believe this only applies to a particular subset of the uses > of computers. Maybe we could describe it as the subset that applies to > desktop computers. In the tablet/phone world, Free Software is > not nearly as prevalent (instead, in that sphere, the most prevalent is > freeware which is a name that mostly disappeared, replaced by the name > "free software"). > I agree in general, bit things aren't necessarily as stark as they might seem; there are a fair (I originally said "reasonable" and then rejected that implication) number of iOS and Android packages that make their source code available for all to see and maybe-use. The troubles tend to arise where the tools for building and installing that software is closed, and also in the steady move towards "walled gardens" where a user needs to jump through extradoridinary hoops to install and run self-made software on their own devices. As a practical matter, the rough shape of Android app security has resulted in strong movements towards ever more proprietary walls for a large set of users, the platform maintainers (Google and the various OEMs), and many of the software producers (because "knock-off" versions of popular software with added spyware/exploit code is so common). At least in the U.S., the hegemony of the mobile carrier networks makes free mobile software very difficult. From my own perspective of hobby-level hacking on mobile hardware since the mid 90's, it feels a bit like "one step forward, two steps back, and then the goalposts get moved forward 20 meters". Sorry for the tangent; thanks for the FSF & GNU. ~Chad --000000000000e8e42905a4c6c232 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 2:17 PM Stefan Mon= nier <monnier@iro.umontreal.= ca> wrote: