From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: XY Problems (tangent, related to common discussion issue here) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2023 13:20:40 -0500 Message-ID: References: <838r74ye77.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs1cwnnv.fsf@gnu.org> <83edgwwge0.fsf@gnu.org> <831qcwwa7v.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8a8uqeo.fsf@gnu.org> <83il67v3t1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6795b060a0cbadf" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="31546"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Mackenzie To: EMACS development team Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 13 19:21:50 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1r2bZE-0007uv-PV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 19:21:48 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2bYT-00051Q-Nl; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 13:21:01 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2bYR-00050l-Ng for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 13:20:59 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x131.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::131]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1r2bYN-000123-Tb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 13:20:58 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x131.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-507ad511315so6808295e87.0 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 10:20:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1699899653; x=1700504453; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=RWJdLTxiSNzf0nb7x5UwTzzE1Mw/SKi4rOoKmqWOwKk=; b=DYMtEjuR+3krs9ZdpB+oCtCV/oDONPmTvK/0CCqSsJIFyK40UPfl7Siqn09wxik3Gl OZU3heEZx2MFmNzdRA1evwx1SIupqs/U+PZSvT4+b/D0I3WOepF8Gojys76m3jz6I8tf oofH5m0cV+J8d0NIfjGlPI5CgMggYIu0GSN2Iiw2g1z6xtkSCk5bN4Yd8svKEEB9MxsO xVMJKBsEM7C9AAyAEf8KStt0zNIbsKavyEPRKrmcYfJEph3zE+E6zpeT3oK6RlmfcYPR gUpKXMf7PYKZ/2kXtkmvCvt7u9fIIK7jQ7pWJtBcW4Yt2XhLR9/Ituxb1aZtl3PgnozY MdCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1699899653; x=1700504453; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=RWJdLTxiSNzf0nb7x5UwTzzE1Mw/SKi4rOoKmqWOwKk=; b=bMxyY9KhvEFD9O+30t39i/cGKlBitUiDpoDSt7q3LX1jYe6oETbxNYmPbqreedDxI8 6mPzA8UisxQCuffXWb0Bu0k8UyiH3sGU8n/etDGWpsT/4EA+tB1lVt857n8tIUb7pLPJ DDhk/PKDzaH7vbxkGgnv+VnUKiVattoX6I4HtCJljPAcoG36taPF87KyrWC8nqPDETw/ mgZQKiK0Dblks3X0PFmJW4DVY9E8QqV9yfF/PXp4ALOD/T9AgHNEmPr2315WQQU0xWlv 4fplAMZcknXAa/yHf+PrBlkp1HetuPpWxnyuX9mygsnoUrRlurIj0lEjK4b9+YEpvI6D ZAIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxvc5drpE5vXAMuoViof20SpiCPdvIgEU3BQ7Gjvceqw5DpE7WA 9uLBEbER9FFUF/H9ddW7xKQcIuh1ZlqOxEJiOoqKvOJ3gyY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGtHoSZyochGh6hCr25DOT4Qse2kPNTHYth48Fr0PhfrvDfrb5NwlGSmm+PKx2Ys51hTBiFXzxT4NsHRchFpdQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3c8b:b0:509:1301:8470 with SMTP id h11-20020a0565123c8b00b0050913018470mr6761697lfv.45.1699899652862; Mon, 13 Nov 2023 10:20:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83il67v3t1.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::131; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x131.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:312702 Archived-At: --000000000000f6795b060a0cbadf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This exchange between two incredibly seasoned, experienced contributors to emacs provide a near-textbook example of what another contributor recently brought up, "an XY Problem". Eli's recent message highlights the issue pretty clearly; On Sun, Nov 12, 2023 at 2:18=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Now, by contrast, you're saying all but part of the font locking stuff = is > > tangents and inessential. > > That's not what I said. I said that debugging the jit-lock mechanism > doesn't bump into the problem of being unable to Edebug font-lock > invoked by jit-lock. > > IOW, I'm trying to keep this discussion focused on specific issues, > rather than let it degenerate into another futile dispute, by lumping > together unrelated issues and tangents. > > > > So you want to debug window-scroll-functions, not font-lock? Then wh= y > > > did you start by talking about font-lock? > > > > Must you be so aggressive, Eli? > > It isn't aggression, it's frustration. I have, as you might imagine, > very little time to waste on pointless discussions, so I get > frustrated when, after no less than 3 messages of me trying to help > you solve some problem you seem to be raising, it turns out you have > something very different in mind, which you didn't clearly state until > now. > > Please try to describe the issue more clearly and comprehensively next > time, and save me and others from wasting efforts on looking up > solutions for problems you seem to raise, solutions you don't really > mean to use, because you are actually looking for something very > different. > While I hadn't heard the term "XY problem" until Jo=C3=A3o referenced it recently, I've seen the problem itself many times. At heart, the issue comes out of some variation of: * a user encounters an actual, concrete problem in practice * the user diagnoses the problem as the result of some cause * the user formulates a plan/strategy/etc to resolve (or at least thoroughly investigate) the diagnosed cause (critically, *not* the original problem) * the user appeals to external resources for help *with their attempt to resolve/investigate the diagnosed cause. >From what I've observed, this problem is significantly more likely to occur when the people involved are higher skilled, more expert, and more knowledgeable, both in general and in/near the fields in question. (I myself saw it happen multiple times a week over several years of working with the various technical support groups for MIT's campus computing systems, many years back; I also saw it happen frequently in more widespread on-line help systems (Usenet, internet fora, mailing lists), and I think we all can agree that it's happened on emacs-devel some non-trivial number of times). In my experience, the *most* common response from the hypothetical original user above after being told that their original diagnosis was mistaken is refusal to believe. (There is apparently a bunch of psychology that helps explain why, but little dispute around whether it happens or not.) The most effective methods we found for dealing with it were A.) develop the expectation that the first steps in providing technical support is /always/ to start as close as possible to "what are you trying to do?", and B.) encourage everyone involved to remember that this is fundamentally an issue of communications, not skill, knowledge, acumen, etc. I want to be clear that I'm not trying to call out anyone in particular with this message; this is a pernicious pattern that is very common, and there are well-worn psychological and cognitive science principles that make it much easier to fall into this trap than to avoid it. Thanks for reading this far; I hope that it helps, ~Chad --000000000000f6795b060a0cbadf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This exchange between two incredibly=C2=A0seasoned, e= xperienced contributors to emacs provide a near-textbook example of what an= other contributor recently brought up, "an XY Problem". Eli's= recent message highlights the issue pretty clearly;=C2=A0

On Sun, Nov 12, 2= 023 at 2:18=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii <el= iz@gnu.org> wrote:
> Now, by contrast, you're saying all but part of the font locking s= tuff is
> tangents and inessential.

That's not what I said.=C2=A0 I said that debugging the jit-lock mechan= ism
doesn't bump into the problem of being unable to Edebug font-lock
invoked by jit-lock.

IOW, I'm trying to keep this discussion focused on specific issues,
rather than let it degenerate into another futile dispute, by lumping
together unrelated issues and tangents.

> > So you want to debug window-scroll-functions, not font-lock?=C2= =A0 Then why
> > did you start by talking about font-lock?
>
> Must you be so aggressive, Eli?

It isn't aggression, it's frustration.=C2=A0 I have, as you might i= magine,
very little time to waste on pointless discussions, so I get
frustrated when, after no less than 3 messages of me trying to help
you solve some problem you seem to be raising, it turns out you have
something very different in mind, which you didn't clearly state until<= br> now.

Please try to describe the issue more clearly and comprehensively next
time, and save me and others from wasting efforts on looking up
solutions for problems you seem to raise, solutions you don't really mean to use, because you are actually looking for something very
different.

While I hadn't heard the= term "XY problem" until=C2=A0Jo=C3=A3o referenced it recently, I= 've seen the problem itself many times. At heart, the issue comes out o= f some variation of:

* a user encounters an actual= , concrete problem in practice
* the user diagnoses the problem a= s the result of some cause
* the user formulates a plan/strategy/= etc to resolve (or at least thoroughly investigate) the diagnosed cause (cr= itically, not the original problem)
* the user appeals to = external resources for help *with their attempt to resolve/investigate the = diagnosed cause.

From what I've observed, this= problem is significantly more likely to occur when the people involved are= higher skilled, more expert, and more knowledgeable, both in general and i= n/near the fields in question. (I myself saw it happen multiple times a wee= k over several years of working with the various technical support groups f= or MIT's campus computing systems, many years back; I also saw it happe= n frequently in more widespread on-line help systems (Usenet, internet fora= , mailing lists), and I think we all can agree that it's happened on em= acs-devel some non-trivial number of times).

In my= experience, the most=C2=A0common response from the hypothetical ori= ginal user above after being told that their original diagnosis was mistake= n is refusal to believe. (There is apparently a bunch of psychology that he= lps explain why, but little dispute around whether it happens or not.) The = most effective methods we found for dealing with it were A.) develop the ex= pectation that the first steps in providing technical support is /always/ t= o start as close as possible to "what are you trying to do?", and= B.) encourage everyone involved to remember that this is fundamentally an = issue of communications, not skill, knowledge, acumen, etc.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0

I want to be clear that I'm not trying to = call out anyone in particular with this message; this is a pernicious patte= rn that is very common, and there are well-worn psychological and cognitive= science principles that make it much easier to fall into this trap than to= avoid it.

Thanks for reading this far; I hope tha= t it helps,
~Chad
=C2=A0
--000000000000f6795b060a0cbadf--