From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Reconsider defaults for use-package-vc-prefer-newest Date: Sun, 15 Sep 2024 18:12:00 -0400 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000956b2e06222fbf8b" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16161"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel To: Martin Edstrom Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 16 00:13:14 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1spxUV-0003yv-BL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 16 Sep 2024 00:13:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spxTk-00086A-Rp; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 18:12:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spxTh-00085s-3G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 18:12:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1spxTd-00023C-Df for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 18:12:20 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-535be093a43so4833734e87.3 for ; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 15:12:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1726438334; x=1727043134; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=FbswO2m8qanHfAnT8/BCjDrVwKFz7+DcmcitMxFEAOc=; b=EcqJqXBTqTte8ubqveV2nG0IQEEXRe8nhetsNXkl+GVMveXM4vYtRbIMOgo/KgK7wD mcH6/eW0reewxScI4OjPMD0sgRADiFNrLg5eCcRF+PHiKl9Uu8fk+VvBHtghVOt5YIhj pkCENHRba1BHWMeYyKk8Gl3nVY4kAuIN3a8V1mW26/lWgsuQIrFhmEtPDZ/lfmCWqq0n nIx1nSRGn+xulKZocrFrdri6XAzkJ91AHVSjuXh9ly8SsTAh3D9cR852UbGVmByFJkZR fqtyjFd+tHnRJ+PA+VJDtH2yKpWDF551i4vLo1DAw0IzwfV9RikOpJXlTLjWAA8ELT0v Wuzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1726438334; x=1727043134; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=FbswO2m8qanHfAnT8/BCjDrVwKFz7+DcmcitMxFEAOc=; b=VvtD5w8YET00asfrAP/7TjVPH/cwVXhYKJefranQdICjBhk/ytGGSHEF8kDI57sa/U 9lEk3EcLnMNbQAMWevMLUpVwED5Y8Vn2nJBin8s5PDyJmrhfU4SLbYlIZV3Dwjhzp71G sueVSoLMjEKm/63RGsRfCvpJAvxZcQHwAHa2dxVXkdSZqjbzXJRdu8QM4Zqp4HfNKMq4 419e+AS8lK4DV6E1COvAbM7fVKFGyUJBi6X6Ca1Sdoh74pW/eNqO7xkBJo3Hz0VKCsBn /fPXfnqulAL2mbHAsvUk4oQjzYFgD3DnADlKt7y8nVFPFPn8JlLpl8d6iBZAkivnlHaQ LDuw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Ywu2esD2P1kkowFgs+WF06w0iKPFulwpzn+wgRW2sc16O34z1IH /FGG84hRGMRdjC0lO8nXsEisvffPtEpndmAOcFD8K29C53xoTXffsYUUmqNVERkA1MaWTP/5h7J nv73CFnxSz0PrCyhZ2pnPwhUnXvTZlQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHWYjsAcpjvtv+BdsUYLXx19C7H4CMbr0YqoS4uYatkgNEa3A6ykWcYNfXfaKUMflYt5NXhrn3uSNtSChxSCBw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:b03:b0:530:ea2b:1a92 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-53678feb0a9mr6766994e87.43.1726438333309; Sun, 15 Sep 2024 15:12:13 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12a; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:323645 Archived-At: --000000000000956b2e06222fbf8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 5:09=E2=80=AFPM Martin Edstrom wrote: > The "catastrophe" would be a situation such as: > > - In 2020, Developer releases Package for the first time > - In 2021, Developer tires of bumping Package-Version, leaves it at 0.9 > - In 2024, Package is now at 2.2 according to the convenient git/hg tag, > or maybe it has no official version beyond just "0.9.0.50-git" > - User installs Package using (use-package :vc) > - User gets the version from 2021 > [...] You're describing the situation in terms of theoretical user results, but that's not how the code works, obviously. At some point, the code checks the user's value of use-package-vs-prefer-newest, sees whether it's the default or has been customized, and decides to fetch the new package contents or not. My rough understanding is, *in the non-VC case*, it downloads new archive-contents for the (each) entire archive regardless, and then I'm guessing that it currently uses the setting to determine whether to get a new version or not. I don't know how the code path in the (use-package :vc) works, but presumably there's a clear point where the two behaviors (that is, vc-use-package's supposed former update-by-default versus use-package :vc's ...prefer-newer 'nil lack of update) diverge. I'm asking if there's a reasonable way to change the default behavior from the supposed-old yes-update and the current default wait-for-Package-version into something that leaves the package alone but warns the user, perhaps via *Messages*. Put another way, your concern seems to be that people might not _realize_ that they're "stuck" on an older Package-Version revision. The alternative package "manager" code for emacs suggests that there is desire both for version pinning and direct-from-vcs-packages, so it's likely that there are users who prefer both alternatives, and emacs is often default-conservative in such matters, but it seems like it might be possible to have use-package do a little extra work in the default case to address the "not realize" part, rather than changing the updating behavior itself. Hope that helps, ~Chad --000000000000956b2e06222fbf8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Sep 15, 2024 at 5:09=E2=80=AF= PM Martin Edstrom <meedstrom@runb= ox.eu> wrote:
The "catastrophe" would be a situation such as:

- In 2020, Developer releases Package for the first time
- In 2021, Developer tires of bumping Package-Version, leaves it at 0.9
- In 2024, Package is now at 2.2 according to the convenient git/hg tag, or= maybe it has no official version beyond just "0.9.0.50-git"
- User installs Package using (use-package :vc)
- User gets the version from 2021
[...]

= You're describing the situation in terms of theoretical user results, b= ut that's not how the code works, obviously. At some point, the code ch= ecks the user's value of use-package-vs-prefer-newest, sees whether it&= #39;s the default or has been customized, and decides to fetch the new pack= age contents or not. My rough understanding is, *in the non-VC case*, it do= wnloads new archive-contents for the (each) entire archive regardless, and = then I'm guessing that it currently uses the setting to determine wheth= er to get a new version or not.

I don't know h= ow the code path in the (use-package :vc) works, but presumably there's= a clear point where the two behaviors (that is, vc-use-package's suppo= sed former update-by-default versus use-package :vc's ...prefer-newer &= #39;nil lack of update) diverge. I'm asking if there's a reasonable= way to change the default behavior from the supposed-old yes-update and th= e current default wait-for-Package-version into something that leaves the p= ackage alone but warns the user, perhaps via *Messages*.

Put another way, your concern seems to be that people might not _rea= lize_ that they're "stuck" on an older Package-Version revisi= on. The alternative package "manager" code for emacs suggests tha= t there is desire both for version pinning and direct-from-vcs-packages, so= it's likely that there are users who prefer both alternatives, and ema= cs is often default-conservative in such matters, but it seems like it migh= t be possible to have use-package do a little extra work in the default cas= e to address the "not realize" part, rather than changing the upd= ating behavior itself.

Hope that helps,
= ~Chad
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