From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why are so many great packages not trying to get included in GNU Emacs? WAS: Re: Making Emacs more friendly to newcomers Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:51:04 -0700 Message-ID: References: <863691n4xl.wl-me@enzu.ru> <87imhw431x.fsf@yahoo.com> <87mu78huhx.fsf_-_@yahoo.com> <87k12bdgx7.fsf@yahoo.com> <87r1wi7a8o.fsf@yahoo.com> <875zdteybt.fsf@runbox.com> <87368wrvf5.fsf@yahoo.com> <86k126d83n.wl-me@enzu.ru> <83pnbyckvv.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000041e81f05a3fec3f9" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="121181"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: Jean-Christophe Helary Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 24 02:52:37 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jRma4-000VQ0-65 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 02:52:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46246 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRma3-0001nJ-0T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:52:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60428) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRmYs-0000Zp-W4 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:51:23 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRmYq-0004Lh-NQ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:51:22 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb41.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b41]:37608) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jRmYo-0004CT-It for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 20:51:19 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb41.google.com with SMTP id n2so4156604ybg.4 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:51:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZEbzEd+y201xiV7J7aT0MYfCDiXsOkxAdaHP3iCPRew=; b=GfnlbQvToyUvgFknWu73ZTrFAlDpdFej/EUtuD5bzkunmcp8niMWoUb4dOzqMTYv2F Am0pN/7Z34NxG3v0eZ16hAtxIdxl+N1Mxj6OVx9P/1j9iTe5VH/D2tG1n6qgCTlZDnpI g1PdLlBdEt3G5a9IwneciIxot+RxlRPAalO1mJ1k8ABe6LSIIF5EOjTOKwJlTjH5xFu/ Hng+mYKhUa5zS9JYaPJPBokk78cgoOd5JvTtzIQzC1+/lHPJgBjRC/AfvnUFRzyYOIpx Y/4DY24Jx/5KwsXgIeKxbTsbkG7mX7J8VkdibtGZHe8Zr/LlxePqoy/qDL/Ygj+Nvgvr HQyA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZEbzEd+y201xiV7J7aT0MYfCDiXsOkxAdaHP3iCPRew=; b=CKSkydsAk7ijxfcf6biDaW/N2TKwWIbuJ8sLfU5R7oha2nvebnc1sOtAVqBmcBh52d MucoQxz0mscuqft6yEfAD0bxSKRtrC3pWDgIAI1YbTpPEywVgJ8A+9oWE7E59pzqfyqZ Nq9QBHVbrOh4tYFmJ7ko/pJDTUelOuNSecgZpsOgGwWQDtnVNBwTKDaqPieuhF7df7IP llDNSijJztrTQUy5qBZUp/4FgApqdRHkTAkJy4aad5MNFDQGONf9NebqNLQbdpdd+xrR AEQNY7LZU5bjVlzEWwcYTv/5krF5QfqLbFhZliguji/4pk1MNTCNQRkXp5x0lbJ3KUIm EMiw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaCssX4XI4JX+sefCczrEttlYe3jmUU4pkmydcDRXCjz5WczS4T 2oE4vFZyPeRehk1LSPvGVsDC71+q07CjoxRDq0GZodkbnf4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLrA1Lhl0qpHvgeIc9gIP8OD79P21MLBKGsvpAIO5CraGPPXCt1g3hw/45nayzweFLduRdklHLLtCpZluNRIVs= X-Received: by 2002:a25:d84d:: with SMTP id p74mr11933405ybg.105.1587689476448; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 17:51:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b41; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb41.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::b41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247647 Archived-At: --00000000000041e81f05a3fec3f9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:46 PM Jean-Christophe Helary < jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org> wrote: > > On Apr 24, 2020, at 2:07, Stefan Kangas wrote: > > - Misconceptions about how hard it is to work with emacs-devel. > > That's something that documentation can fix. > I'm not sure how. I think the widespread conception is that working with emacs-devel is more difficult than working with many, many other free- and open-source projects, and I think that conception is correct. Compared to "fork the project and submit a pull request" or "publish a package on melpa", following emacs' patch guidelines is harder. Emacs requires additional paperwork. Updating the documentation (NEWS, Changelog, the info manuals) is harder and involves tools, tech, and practices that are unfamiliar to most potential developers. Using debbugs has improved a lot in the past few years, but is still a pain-point for many. Following the emacs-devel mailing list is, let's say, not a welcoming experience for everyone. That doesn't even touch on the difficulties of interacting with the core. I think that the end result of emacs' processes is high-quality code that runs on many more systems than the vast majority of software, but I don't think most new developers are shying away from working on emacs because of the lack or quality of the documentation. ~Chad --00000000000041e81f05a3fec3f9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 4:46 PM Jean-Chri= stophe Helary <jean.christophe.helary@traduction-libre.org> wrote:
> On Apr 24, 2020, at 2:07, Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> wrote:
> - Misconceptions about how hard it is to work with emacs-devel.

That's something that documentation can fix.

<= /div>
=C2=A0I'm not sure how. I think the widespread conception is = that working with emacs-devel is more difficult than working with many, man= y other free- and open-source projects, and I think that conception is corr= ect. Compared to "fork the project and submit a pull request" or = "publish a package on melpa", following emacs' patch guidelin= es is harder. Emacs requires additional paperwork. Updating the documentati= on (NEWS, Changelog, the info manuals) is harder and involves tools, tech, = and practices that are unfamiliar to most potential developers. Using debbu= gs has improved a lot in the past few years, but is still a pain-point for = many. Following the emacs-devel mailing list is, let's say, not a welco= ming experience for everyone. That doesn't even touch on the difficulti= es of interacting with the core.

I think that the = end result of emacs' processes is high-quality code that runs on many m= ore systems than the vast=C2=A0majority of software, but I don't think = most new developers are shying away from working on emacs because of the la= ck or quality of the documentation.

~Chad
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