From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: gmail+imap+smtp (oauth2) Date: Sat, 14 May 2022 17:43:33 -0400 Message-ID: References: <871qxbdulc.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <877d72nf3h.fsf@gmail.com> <87v8ul4ad4.fsf@gmail.com> <87r157qcta.fsf@logand.com> <87wneyc6zu.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000071ea1d05deffaf98" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14389"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , Tomas Hlavaty , fitzsim@fitzsim.org, jostein@kjonigsen.net, EMACS development team To: Tim Cross Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 14 23:45:56 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1npzaF-0003YV-DG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 14 May 2022 23:45:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39550 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1npzaE-0006ci-He for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 14 May 2022 17:45:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48862) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1npzYD-0005dg-V3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 14 May 2022 17:43:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::133]:46934) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1npzYB-0000ht-Pc; Sat, 14 May 2022 17:43:49 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id i10so19949561lfg.13; Sat, 14 May 2022 14:43:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qPJ3z5ItKID1LzpTntm7UaOvadbAg/ng0HiiYe9xV1w=; b=Yz9iN3s62gStsxau/AG2+GZ4dki/2OBbGdOpNyWjzhN7ESpjk8VSdzJssVbzYlrcFm 20g59Qf7TuhadX/3+D3ujbgVBDVBsEVN1ODIKM+hQEZzhJi+vuHuHWYvcQWOYbzbU3UP ASyFzUlfYdQE6R1dvr52rqcHm/6RVV3uF0+SFcaDesN5ZQFW/Cx6wIXCbYyJRr4NIU9m n7fXbCx53vokvxlSfS6PdSj+e0qEdp/ku9hPHtlkctVaQba1CLf6FYGukM5WtSLto/M3 mV1Wz1DyUuw1/HF26jCJWnMkx6k8PcATFWgyl00YmGikn01azo4O7Cw62GolulSGs741 6Tyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qPJ3z5ItKID1LzpTntm7UaOvadbAg/ng0HiiYe9xV1w=; b=AyHIn7CkFnavWTbh/xcB8yBFHGbT5YFbls9lbzdwn0UUJ6R2No6WxKNMSAnLP0vKH3 4hhw03mcJhT2ps+F4IrI7NVPL5HOQJlfCOa/c8/oQe7cTWf7ysndOV4V8gNJr0pKq+zN ++fcX33by6I/0GVxQm1GtLiiWQ199W0ikjWB7zEvT5LM0RhXnsCo3J558mrifLfKPGl3 Z01XcRIX2McCAJeXuSYQhHgBNJMDeiFfD5sJZQrm7P/LZkqASKm4hCRLFG6C21QFV74U lOSiAYilZimli4uYQV1DA4UDmHB1JRozOf1Y18T00AEVdZhJq8jjiP8TfJ7SuoPupqNr zpVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531RyulbCakEIIVzBjbIHhzrBMM6I3zmX97NgTCz0WlA6GLKo41K uEDGLNwwU0vUzzLYlFCbrd01z/zVkOvW4THSTCQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxhPb4I87nnVpoBtEVf3kgOAu5vH8LFcuZELzOgpvl1lpWsSRfGT8zcH0s+wXPp9R6tzIqFMQgoUNcHuqUyYPM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3317:b0:472:31cc:fb4 with SMTP id k23-20020a056512331700b0047231cc0fb4mr8056854lfe.256.1652564625056; Sat, 14 May 2022 14:43:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87wneyc6zu.fsf@gmail.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::133; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x133.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:289786 Archived-At: --00000000000071ea1d05deffaf98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There is a small additional wrinkle to Tim Cross' excellent summary: On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:17 AM Tim Cross wrote: > > 2. Use a Google oauth2 compliant client to obtain an oath2 access token > which you then use as your password in your libre IMAP/SMTP client. > However, at this time, there doesn't seem to be any libre Google oauth2 > client we can use. If there was, it would be theoretically possible to > access your emails and send new ones using only libre software and avoid > needing to login to the non-free settings page to setup application > passwords. There exist libre mail client software packages that use oauth2 to talk to Google/Gmail. For example, nmh, which can be used inside emacs with mh-e. That said, these packages have practical downsides to pure libre usage, including both Thunderbird-style "we think we know what you mean" reading of the terms and conditions as well as user-setup instructions that include running probably non-libre Google javascript. In the end, it would be great if the FSF (or someone else) could get Google to go "on the record" about the details of the Terms & Conditions, but that's been the state for several years now, and it doesn't seem likely. (In fact, it's a common refrain among frequent gmail users running Chrome, Android, and iOS apps that gmail is basically unresponsive except to periodically push out undesired changes.) Still, it would be great, hope springs eternal, etc. In terms of practical advice for people who want to use emacs and are stuck at least part-time on gmail (or "Google Workspace", or whatever it's called this month), the various middleman approaches ala mbsync or davmail are functional. The main complication there is in trying to automate things that Google (MS Office 365, etc) design as (frequently changing) interactive web pages, and the results are often fragile or confusing. I'm a firm proponent of Hanlon's Razor, but it's hard to believe that this outcome isn't at least tacitly accepted. Hope that helps, ~Chad --00000000000071ea1d05deffaf98 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a small additional wrinkle to Tim Cross'= excellent summary:

On Sat, May 7, 2022 at 12:17 AM Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:

2. Use a Google oauth2 compliant client to obtain an oath2 access token
which you then use as your password in your libre IMAP/SMTP client.
However, at this time, there doesn't seem to be any libre Google oauth2=
client we can use. If there was, it would be theoretically possible to
access your emails and send new ones using only libre software and avoid needing to login to the non-free settings page to setup application
passwords.

There exist libre mail client so= ftware packages that use oauth2 to talk to Google/Gmail. For example, nmh, = which can be used inside emacs with mh-e. That said, these packages have pr= actical downsides to pure libre usage, including both Thunderbird-style &qu= ot;we think we know what you mean" reading of the terms and conditions= as well as user-setup instructions that include running probably non-libre= Google javascript.

In the end, it would be great = if the FSF (or someone else) could get Google to go "on the record&quo= t; about the details of the Terms & Conditions, but that's been the= state for several years now, and it doesn't seem likely. (In fact, it&= #39;s a common refrain among=C2=A0frequent gmail users running Chrome, Andr= oid, and iOS apps that gmail is basically unresponsive except to periodical= ly push out undesired changes.) Still, it would be great, hope springs eter= nal, etc.

In terms of practical advice for people = who want to use emacs and are stuck at least part-time on gmail (or "G= oogle Workspace", or whatever it's called this month), the various= middleman approaches ala mbsync or davmail are functional. The main compli= cation there is in trying to automate things that Google (MS Office 365, et= c) design as (frequently changing) interactive web pages, and the results a= re often fragile or confusing. I'm a firm proponent of Hanlon's Raz= or, but it's hard to believe that this outcome isn't at least tacit= ly=C2=A0accepted.

Hope that helps,
~Chad=
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