From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: extraclean and admin/grammars [was Re: Git master head build failure?] Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2021 15:36:51 -0700 Message-ID: References: <875z16en2o.fsf@gmail.com> <83mtuih3en.fsf@gnu.org> <835z16gnkj.fsf@gnu.org> <83y2e2f22w.fsf@gnu.org> <87zgyikmui.fsf@gnus.org> <83v995g8lo.fsf@gnu.org> <87r1jsls85.fsf@gnus.org> <83a6qgg56n.fsf@gnu.org> <87h7knlcl6.fsf@gnus.org> <83o8eve9oy.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007e070005bf191a8a" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="23701"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rgm@gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen , Tim Cross , Stefan Monnier , EMACS development team To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 04 00:37:45 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lSotk-00063b-As for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 04 Apr 2021 00:37:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51244 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lSotj-00086X-Ay for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 18:37:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36812) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lSotA-0007hO-Hy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 18:37:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]:33282) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lSot8-0006kT-OJ; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 18:37:08 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id o126so12360891lfa.0; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:37:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Epj5aQV90k8/4W21ePi1754/QuEfV1KoISsz97gBo5M=; b=p2fOYrYYP2tvEkQJfp50GLSYn3nqQxwjZzwZFJj6tGXqMbTqKemJFzOwITL7dbxdf/ yGG+7wX47vdBIu70NQ4tek3Zxao7ijG+gGoEx1yNJmBRZL+dfQmYlMQtAPgVitY/fme3 eW/pdJ3etFM/lFRkM+BXB8MoCPY3gYJjWHB88rtqOBuWXG1x8pFwhEbVbkqFeMF+DiMm EcgoHVg1cizbsc44pdi/o+J7/NF3qCB4DfkJaC6uzboWkzzbXaH07BgAm9f7HvnAumSb MGJxsOwnYl6Vo7LXUzB7pPj94O/CgE+tkgdZZTCUWb4sxX/OVpG1eAIm9wLE9DLnf/K0 /fXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Epj5aQV90k8/4W21ePi1754/QuEfV1KoISsz97gBo5M=; b=p4JO3XjYWqwkUWt/7iiqW1QZ3gkHwrK19UKdkcAjhmD8v750c8JHw4uShmy4TbpLck AVeMRbbVhHlf7KZk1GkH7EwdGNpc3PxMSxEM6zCviNuj+rHR83Y2+cLaSqAVaDWSa0uC g5tQOea+QO3zhCJbIv0nAciwXyAsNXCrBG35xrIqwqGq5NKfEZoMbYbYOMNAhdMFkM+D g7zYT+QjnoVWO1DFiLzV/Nn7hYpq4M2sSr/L6BWRXMeZuxBUUCZf3eHs6z4D2gWrFauU bFquw9/6y6usc7ZS7f69fCaJayqbXGlxsVbb+o+x3e/jwCJbOTj+qf0GLnl/ipZvsZZB VLIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Xbi1ApNzm7sxO3KQPNjtv0g7e3mPbzlF2M2InhdLQmOnqqVx7 WA/nZd1ZsdPUq2CB4JGo2xMHrPDU4zskpfUTVs5knyDfwUI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJy8gK/Tdbz5m/CQju9WABAuuVXpNiAVb/S0tpOydyycTFZF9UWTiJ4bDn/BzvSziLTPg1hSsMRMLVPrVcavJUo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:36c9:: with SMTP id e9mr12337971lfs.556.1617489423106; Sat, 03 Apr 2021 15:37:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83o8eve9oy.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12d; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:267369 Archived-At: --0000000000007e070005bf191a8a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 7:16 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > I still don't understand what mean here, since it's been demonstrated > > several times that (in certain circumstances) people have to say "make > > extraclean" to build a working Emacs executable. > > "make extraclean" is only needed when doing something very drastic, > like switching to a very different branch. That is an extremely rare > (if not improbable) use case, so IMO having everyone pay for it is > unjustified. > > > So "make bootstrap" doesn't do what it says on the tin > > But it does: it bootstraps the current configuration of Emacs by doing > what is necessary, but not more than that. > > It sounds like you think that "make bootstrap" is equivalent to > checking out a pristine clone. But that is not the case, at least not > for most people who use that target. > Without getting too caught up in the details of who-said-what-when, when I read the Makefile, this text: # make bootstrap > # Removes all the compiled files to force a new bootstrap from a > # clean slate, and then build in the normal way. ..it makes me think something much closer to what I think Lars was saying "make bootstrap" should do than "only use this if you don't have src/{t,}emacs", which is roughly how I interpret (perhaps wrongly) what Eli is suggesting "make boostrap" is for. It also surprises me that emacs' build system needs clean, mostlyclean, distclean, maintainer-clean, extraclean, and bootstrap, but that overhead seems very low, mostly confusion around which to use. Probably, I'm biased by my own use-case, which is roughly: I periodically (multiple times a week) pull and bootstrap emacs using a custom build script, so I can test the latest and greatest of emacs-devel. When I do work on specific changes myself, I use "make all" nearly all the time (I have memories of needing to bootstrap now and then, but I can't recall the circumstances). That said, I'm using a moderately performant machine, (currently 3 years old, before that up to 8 years old) and typically run -j6. Hope that helps. ~Chad --0000000000007e070005bf191a8a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 7:16 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> I still don't understand what mean he= re, since it's been demonstrated
> several times that (in certain circumstances) people have to say "= ;make
> extraclean" to build a working Emacs executable.

"make extraclean" is only needed when doing something very drasti= c,
like switching to a very different branch.=C2=A0 That is an extremely rare<= br> (if not improbable) use case, so IMO having everyone pay for it is
unjustified.

> So "make bootstrap" doesn't do what it says on the tin
But it does: it bootstraps the current configuration of Emacs by doing
what is necessary, but not more than that.

It sounds like you think that "make bootstrap" is equivalent to checking out a pristine clone.=C2=A0 But that is not the case, at least not=
for most people who use that target.

Without getting too caught up in the details of who-said-what-when, when= I read the Makefile, this text:

# make bootstrap
# =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0Removes all the compiled files to force a new bootstrap from a
# =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0clean slate, and then build in the normal way.

..it makes me think something much closer to what I th= ink Lars was saying "make bootstrap" should do than "only us= e this if you don't have src/{t,}emacs", which is roughly how I in= terpret (perhaps wrongly) what Eli is suggesting "make boostrap" = is for. It also surprises me that emacs' build system needs clean, most= lyclean, distclean, maintainer-clean, extraclean, and bootstrap, but that o= verhead seems very low, mostly confusion around which to use.=C2=A0

Probably, I'm biased by my own use-case, which is rou= ghly: I periodically (multiple times a week) pull and bootstrap emacs using= a custom build script, so I can test the latest and greatest of emacs-deve= l. When I do work on specific changes myself, I use "make all" ne= arly all the time (I have memories of needing to bootstrap now and then, bu= t I can't recall the circumstances). That said, I'm using a moderat= ely performant machine, (currently 3 years old, before that up to 8 years o= ld) and typically run -j6.

Hope that helps.
<= div>~Chad --0000000000007e070005bf191a8a--