From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: chad Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2023 22:53:23 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ed7d600603f2ccec" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26587"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Arthur Miller , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 28 04:54:41 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qaSOm-0006iA-QQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 28 Aug 2023 04:54:40 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaSNr-0005pG-PF; Sun, 27 Aug 2023 22:53:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaSNn-0005p0-Lh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Aug 2023 22:53:39 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yw1-x1135.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1135]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qaSNl-0004zv-GZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Aug 2023 22:53:39 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yw1-x1135.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-58cbdf3eecaso31346827b3.0 for ; Sun, 27 Aug 2023 19:53:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1693191215; x=1693796015; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=tc+ybHa0b+twduCKRiTdqbLWhBDzJjh0VIec/fBRo7A=; b=Jm0jQlhFFN70ngI4mOVj+QCR6zUBeMK5V96ajKT+y7sFUg446wod0Q1kz0jArUGqF2 fYFmIDQ9Axp2rPIhc0zWc4kQNvpwT7dndoXQu0F7f3GuBIe7ZElgMn8TIB6980jljEQ8 NbW5X9avM3/qdaZHxQGndi8vgzzir1jcq09DluiZeuFOVFRR4TZSJXaFsnZaj7vPhXIa Xg3V0vEN/H6+rOv91mYkeOvg0uAbBzXlTwHTECR/wkaKhOA8iFWUHt0NKEuaZ+TVkZw8 Fjx+7beS88IzWB3S2/6MhK/d4McjxW1a3U/0mPQPkRfmjLHSx17BPkOC46pyKtqaiUki A7GA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1693191215; x=1693796015; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=tc+ybHa0b+twduCKRiTdqbLWhBDzJjh0VIec/fBRo7A=; b=bOuHN+IYRVoebb0Ee8rFLG/V+gEhoI1QR/vwxlulPlz+Fn1uewlHFLHaQLST9XKbg8 XuAMvMzbcEYeDnxioIWmbBSND52S3666a9V1XSLyXbyFEyl6536URb21dypyDW5grdXW 4k3sHrQxM6ar5JdKEW+Wa5f5IMlIroT0H7/pg0N/2fxCikHv3xw/oUszrQm78HZF3MvF oPFrA67Ly2QbHJdpD52oqYu76jvyUJYX2EKBRIURFjOmLWf7uWK7dUbF4QFp1xXmA+zd vv6FdTxHosmzsSBn10JGuYhAtmGLvXMrwf8N6T7hai6YDz25EL2X6hYxs7bdPV/sm+v0 hxrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxbK4mSJ4xaQEPReu2RXp+ApdTSD6WfIO2x77qWjcOmt8TzpRh5 CGrj+UMV0M4bWw0i8DJrrGsepwW4eF9f+6ys55agdBGQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFRz2h0urqGaiy2V64VN0wkxaPsJZA+XhfEYc4878Dek1H1+sAyf/d1np8JH79PM/gFXePnfJY249LUjVF3Z+Y= X-Received: by 2002:a81:6d4f:0:b0:589:cf7c:d566 with SMTP id i76-20020a816d4f000000b00589cf7cd566mr23476926ywc.0.1693191215347; Sun, 27 Aug 2023 19:53:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87ledwx7sh.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1135; envelope-from=yandros@gmail.com; helo=mail-yw1-x1135.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:309396 Archived-At: --000000000000ed7d600603f2ccec Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 9:42=E2=80=AFPM Po Lu wrote: > But today, both free BSD Unix and proprietary Unix scale to SMPs with > hundereds of processors, exploiting intricate interlocking around > individual kernel data structures. The perfect antithesis to your > standpoint... > An old friend of mine did this work for NetBSD as his master's thesis at MIT. Rebuilding an emacs would, at a very rough estimate, be no more work, likely less. He had the benefit of being aware of other attempts to add SMP support to other unixen, though. One major problem with building a truly multi-core-optimized Emacs is that so much of the core concepts revolve around shared state, especially buffers. I *think* there's a workable design similar to a modern web browser with moderate-to-high sandboxing and worker threads, but someone would have to care enough about each of Emacs, modern browser implementation (including javascript and sandboxing), and language implementation to puzzle out the details. I don't know of such a person (but it would be a bit surprising if I did!), and I don't have the same sort of contact with grad students anymore. My hope is that there's still a window for such a person, and they haven't all been swallowed up by VSCode and co-pilot. --000000000000ed7d600603f2ccec Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


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On Sun, Aug 27, 2023 at 9:42=E2=80=AF= PM Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com&g= t; wrote:
But today, both free BSD Unix and proprietary Unix scale to SMPs with
hundereds of processors, exploiting intricate interlocking around
individual kernel data structures.=C2=A0 The perfect antithesis to your
standpoint...

An old friend=C2=A0of min= e did this work for NetBSD as his master's thesis at MIT. Rebuilding an= emacs would, at a very rough estimate, be no more work, likely less. He ha= d the benefit=C2=A0of being aware of other attempts to add SMP support to o= ther unixen, though.=C2=A0

One major problem with = building a truly multi-core-optimized Emacs is that so much of the core con= cepts revolve around shared state, especially buffers. I *think* there'= s a workable design similar to a modern web browser with moderate-to-high s= andboxing and worker threads, but someone would have to care enough about e= ach of Emacs, modern browser implementation (including javascript and sandb= oxing), and language implementation to puzzle out the details. I don't = know of such a person (but it would be a bit surprising if I did!), and I d= on't have the same sort of contact with grad students anymore. My hope = is that there's still a window for such a person, and they haven't = all been swallowed up by VSCode and co-pilot.


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