* The art of closing bug reports @ 2011-07-10 0:40 Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 0:52 ` Juanma Barranquero 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 0:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emacs-Devel devel I am a bit disturbed by bug reports that are closed without much effort trying to understand if the bugs are still there. Is this really the best way to get Emacs into a more bug free state? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 0:40 The art of closing bug reports Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 0:52 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-10 0:56 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 1:02 ` Glenn Morris 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-07-10 0:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Emacs-Devel devel > I am a bit disturbed by bug reports that are closed without much > effort trying to understand if the bugs are still there. Such as? Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 0:52 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-07-10 0:56 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 1:31 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-10 1:02 ` Glenn Morris 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 0:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Emacs-Devel devel On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 02:52, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: >> I am a bit disturbed by bug reports that are closed without much >> effort trying to understand if the bugs are still there. > > Such as? I do not think that question is serious. That is my experience from before. Can you explain how saying these words will help the development of free software? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 0:56 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 1:31 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-10 2:03 ` Lennart Borgman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-07-10 1:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Emacs-Devel devel On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 02:56, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > I do not think that question is serious. That is my experience from > before. Can you explain how saying these words will help the > development of free software? I'll do, as soon as you explain to me how do help the development of free software (or just Emacs) bugs that say "I have this crash, for which I won't send a recipe because I'm a very busy guy, which perhaps happens because of my local modifications (that, by the way, I have sent you *hundred of times* and you refuse to include into Emacs just to make my life more difficult) and perhaps not, because I don't really remember, which happened so long ago that I don't even remember what was I doing at the time or how to reproduce it... and please don't ask me for clarification or help in reproduce it, because, as I said, I'm a very busy guy, so please do all the work yourselves and, by the way, what's not clear in my report?" If you think I'm being harsh or mocking you, you need to distance yourself from your own bug reports and try to read them as they are, not as they seem to be in your imagination. Juanma ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 1:31 ` Juanma Barranquero @ 2011-07-10 2:03 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 5:19 ` Tim Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 2:03 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Juanma Barranquero; +Cc: Emacs-Devel devel On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 03:31, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 02:56, Lennart Borgman > <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > >> I do not think that question is serious. That is my experience from >> before. Can you explain how saying these words will help the >> development of free software? > > I'll do, as soon as you explain to me how do help the development of > free software (or just Emacs) bugs that say "I have this crash, for > which I won't send a recipe because I'm a very busy guy, which perhaps > happens because of my local modifications (that, by the way, I have > sent you *hundred of times* and you refuse to include into Emacs just > to make my life more difficult) and perhaps not, because I don't > really remember, which happened so long ago that I don't even remember > what was I doing at the time or how to reproduce it... and please > don't ask me for clarification or help in reproduce it, because, as I > said, I'm a very busy guy, so please do all the work yourselves and, > by the way, what's not clear in my report?" > > If you think I'm being harsh or mocking you, you need to distance > yourself from your own bug reports and try to read them as they are, > not as they seem to be in your imagination. Not at all, Juanma. This is just exactly to the point. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 2:03 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 5:19 ` Tim Cross 2011-07-10 9:43 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Tim Cross @ 2011-07-10 5:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Juanma Barranquero, Emacs-Devel devel On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 03:31, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 02:56, Lennart Borgman >> <lennart.borgman@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I do not think that question is serious. That is my experience from >>> before. Can you explain how saying these words will help the >>> development of free software? >> >> I'll do, as soon as you explain to me how do help the development of >> free software (or just Emacs) bugs that say "I have this crash, for >> which I won't send a recipe because I'm a very busy guy, which perhaps >> happens because of my local modifications (that, by the way, I have >> sent you *hundred of times* and you refuse to include into Emacs just >> to make my life more difficult) and perhaps not, because I don't >> really remember, which happened so long ago that I don't even remember >> what was I doing at the time or how to reproduce it... and please >> don't ask me for clarification or help in reproduce it, because, as I >> said, I'm a very busy guy, so please do all the work yourselves and, >> by the way, what's not clear in my report?" >> >> If you think I'm being harsh or mocking you, you need to distance >> yourself from your own bug reports and try to read them as they are, >> not as they seem to be in your imagination. > > Not at all, Juanma. This is just exactly to the point. > > Two concrete ways I think closing of bug reports could be improved are 1. Include the full bug report subject and not just the bug number in the closure notification. I regularly see closure notices that only include the bug number and a message which often just says the bug has been closed. The problem with this is that it gives no clue as to which bug it was. We tend not to remember bug report numbers, but often will recognise subject or description. Knowing that a particular bug (and I'm talking about ones that you have not lodged yourself) has been closed can be very useful. 2. Include a tag in the closure message which indicates whether the bug was closed because it is believed to be fixed, cannot be fixed, cannot be reproduced, is a duplicate of another bug etc. Both of these suggestions are mainly relevant to those who monitor the email list or newsgroup. I am assuming that if you use the bug tracker directly, then this information is already there. I guess the lack of details in the closure messages is possible a reflection of lack of time or possibly a limitation with the bug tracker mail/news gateway. However, many bug tracking systems I have used have some sort of templating system and perhaps all that is needed is some tweaking of these templates. Tim ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* RE: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 5:19 ` Tim Cross @ 2011-07-10 9:43 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2011-07-10 9:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Tim Cross', 'Lennart Borgman' Cc: 'Juanma Barranquero', 'Emacs-Devel devel' > 1. Include the full bug report subject and not just the bug number in > the closure notification. I regularly see closure notices that only > include the bug number and a message which often just says the bug has > been closed. 1+ But since this is variable, I've been assuming (?) that this was due to the way some particular bug subjects were created in the first place (e.g. perhaps older bugs). It seems that some have `#9999' in the subject, some have just `9999', some have the complete subject. It is good to have both the subject and `#999' - easiest to run a search. If the bug number were in fact quoted (in future), then a search would be easier still. For example, searching for "`#999'" gives no false positives such as searching for "999" or "#999" can ("#999" as prefix or "999" as substring). (I'm assuming a literal, not a regexp search, which is the case for at least some mail clients. Yes, this is a nit. Just something we might consider, if other things are equal. > The problem with this is that it gives no clue as to which bug it was. > We tend not to remember bug report numbers, but often will recognise > subject or description. Knowing that a particular bug (and I'm talking > about ones that you have not lodged yourself) has been closed can be > very useful. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 0:52 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-10 0:56 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 1:02 ` Glenn Morris 2011-07-10 1:18 ` Lennart Borgman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Glenn Morris @ 2011-07-10 1:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Emacs-Devel devel >> I am a bit disturbed by bug reports that are closed without much >> effort trying to understand if the bugs are still there. There is also an "art" to opening bug reports. It's well documented, and many people manage to do it. I'm sorry to say, but some bug reports are of such low quality that they essentially have no value. Leaving them open does nothing except dilute attention away from other reports where progress can be made. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 1:02 ` Glenn Morris @ 2011-07-10 1:18 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 8:16 ` Bastien 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 1:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: Emacs-Devel devel On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 03:02, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote: > >>> I am a bit disturbed by bug reports that are closed without much >>> effort trying to understand if the bugs are still there. > > There is also an "art" to opening bug reports. It's well documented, and > many people manage to do it. I'm sorry to say, but some bug reports are > of such low quality that they essentially have no value. Leaving them > open does nothing except dilute attention away from other reports where > progress can be made. Since I happen to manage many bug reports myself I have some experience with this. I close bug reports that I can't reproduce and get no feedback on. But I do not do that if I just do not have time to reproduce them. Then I just leave them since they might be valuable further on. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: The art of closing bug reports 2011-07-10 1:18 ` Lennart Borgman @ 2011-07-10 8:16 ` Bastien 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Bastien @ 2011-07-10 8:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Lennart Borgman; +Cc: Emacs-Devel devel Hi Lennart, can you give an *example* of a bug report that have been closed the wrong way? Otherwise this discussion will remain too general. Thanks, -- Bastien ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2011-07-10 9:43 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2011-07-10 0:40 The art of closing bug reports Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 0:52 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-10 0:56 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 1:31 ` Juanma Barranquero 2011-07-10 2:03 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 5:19 ` Tim Cross 2011-07-10 9:43 ` Drew Adams 2011-07-10 1:02 ` Glenn Morris 2011-07-10 1:18 ` Lennart Borgman 2011-07-10 8:16 ` Bastien
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