From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Apologia for bzr Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 13:09:12 +0100 Message-ID: References: <20140103152117.GA16679@c3po> <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b5d36b278348c04ef23e70d X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1388837397 13344 80.91.229.3 (4 Jan 2014 12:09:57 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2014 12:09:57 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Toby Cubitt , Richard Stallman , Emacs-Devel devel To: esr@thyrsus.com Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 04 13:10:04 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VzQ3H-0001gl-4F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2014 13:10:03 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54098 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzQ3G-0000Ou-Ke for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2014 07:10:02 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56052) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzQ3D-0000Oh-3G for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2014 07:10:00 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzQ3B-00010C-V3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 04 Jan 2014 07:09:59 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x233.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::233]:65516) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VzQ38-0000zt-0z; Sat, 04 Jan 2014 07:09:54 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wi0-f179.google.com with SMTP id z2so1312144wiv.12 for ; Sat, 04 Jan 2014 04:09:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=XR3YFMaHKeIpcYBklFFLpwKTrfxVza3dsZ0fFagSznE=; b=xMNfRMztTzSdX5v79XTMDl8D0PyA8oK8+KrvO7A0ONk9dEHsL9szLjNRTz1OCufwEL e/HiuwYNytiKK9iiYZzJeId1i2sAh/Vu5Uwj+ImF/nEDZ7xent1wEhPmBzrs5MgNoQx2 PiUZ6UbNHgPqgbdo1fgrhB8ZKi7R+opcFUeQC/UHxOtREnLfZa828LqZQAk1jKx+PIES yD4iiWeM7i2LIWy0xZn26OdBS33xbwF+xLvAL2X/0wQBsZwrGnhLZiBAg74/sTdtt3Jm 3Z4prHFUXi4UCxlriIOf/J7OBScLGXiI9y1x/1Ngh3vywy0TEf6Si9NgQmGZecoDSFrt 0i5Q== X-Received: by 10.194.20.130 with SMTP id n2mr576526wje.62.1388837393149; Sat, 04 Jan 2014 04:09:53 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.194.216.227 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Jan 2014 04:09:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20140104082857.GA22010@thyrsus.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::233 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167275 Archived-At: --047d7b5d36b278348c04ef23e70d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Jan 4, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Eric S. Raymond wrote: > Richard Stallman : > > But even though we did not do anything wrong, it is unfortunate for us > > nonetheless. If it is possible to change Emacs to use some standard > > modern terms instead of its current terms, it might be worth doing, > > even if it means a series of renaming spread over a period of years. > > Mostly there *aren't* any "standard modern terms", because there are > no other editors in which there is so much decoupling between the > local equivalents of our core concepts that they need to be described > separately. > > There's a parallel with git jargon here... > It is very different in one way. An editor is a tool you start with. It should be convenient for everyone. Beginners may face a high complexity and different terms (and keyboard shortcuts) for rather familiar commands makes it much more difficult. The difference might seem small, but since it raises complexity for beginners it waists time for them. Human beings (not even the best) are not very good at logical things. Complexity comes at a cost because of our limited working memory. (Which is just a few pieces, mostly somewhere between 5 to 12. If I may simplify a bit.) --047d7b5d36b278348c04ef23e70d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Jan 4, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Eric S. Raymond <esr@thyrsus.com> wrote:
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>:
> But even though we did not do anything wrong, it is = unfortunate for us
> nonetheless. =C2=A0If it is possible to change Emacs to use some stand= ard
> modern terms instead of its current terms, it might be worth doing, > even if it means a series of renaming spread over a period of years.
Mostly there *aren't* any "standard modern terms", beca= use there are
no other editors in which there is so much decoupling between the
local equivalents of our core concepts that they need to be described
separately.

There's a parallel with git jargon here...

=
It is very different in one way. An editor= is a tool you start with. It should be convenient for everyone. Beginners = may face a high complexity and different terms (and keyboard shortcuts) for= rather familiar commands makes it much more difficult.

The difference might seem small, but since it raises complexity for beg= inners it waists time for them. Human beings (not even the best) are not ve= ry good at logical things. Complexity comes at a cost because of our limite= d working memory. (Which is just a few pieces, mostly somewhere between 5 t= o 12. If I may simplify a bit.)
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