From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: clang vs free software Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 02:35:29 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87fvqtg02v.fsf@flea.lifelogs.com> <87sitkzahs.fsf@yandex.ru> <52D7DAAB.2070709@yandex.ru> <52D81960.2080408@yandex.ru> <52DA8C17.4080707@yandex.ru> <52DC00E5.3020803@yandex.ru> <52DC6A26.3020003@yandex.ru> <87k3dv9z85.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87eh439w1n.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ha8yqvup.fsf@engster.org> <87r47zezcc.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <52E448A0.6010405@dancol.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f46d0438925996dd4d04f0d59d50 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1390700173 8039 80.91.229.3 (26 Jan 2014 01:36:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 01:36:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Helmut Eller , "Richard M. Stallman" , Emacs-Devel devel To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 26 02:36:20 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Ee3-0004Ei-Kb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Jan 2014 02:36:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53156 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Ee3-0006fO-8j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:36:19 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:33189) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Edz-0006fJ-KP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:36:16 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Edx-0002vt-5x for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:36:15 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-wg0-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c]:62267) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W7Edv-0002ve-5v; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:36:11 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id l18so4356777wgh.35 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:36:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Kf86Lt65nJ2ZWc+qG0o5ycFqgHDV+eSwsqxkC9zLR44=; b=djfMtTyHDrQtHOfZDiQFP7CWkWueDB/he1iRmiApTFAZi5H9bH+kqHrvuug0b6ps7h eCnFdToZ6h4wJslv8OgybIJel2XCM89SBgVpic2IOQoEAmBYc72HDindd9OBaSc4A9qk 5fcBCTHcslLF26fqTewoacZ1KLsPsONy1xJI8HC42dfLdVDtyTAKzwR6mw2lRbaGWh/p KCha6Hk4JjENtMXtz/Tf67eKgPtWiBUcS08x4PVMnEsmzCM7Xw66ARr4cEJASTP/3xge HmR2nW6p5SCsRsPeZLMzQ/S3WhFKI49YX1c1lDD7w/FuzEHiujBlGaaK/Y6i5PseIMDG 5bKw== X-Received: by 10.181.13.40 with SMTP id ev8mr7750559wid.16.1390700169451; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:36:09 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.194.216.227 with HTTP; Sat, 25 Jan 2014 17:35:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <52E448A0.6010405@dancol.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c00::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:169099 Archived-At: --f46d0438925996dd4d04f0d59d50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Daniel Colascione wrote: > On 01/25/2014 03:02 PM, Richard Stallman wrote: > >> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] >> >> We don't want to make a program's entire AST available for parsing >> because that would make it easy to extend GCC with proprietary >> programs. >> > > It would also have made it easy to add modern features to Emacs and other > free editors. Symbol table information is flatly inadequate given that in > modern languages, typing information is highly contextual. > > Users will adopt tools that provide these features when FSF programs > support these features or not. If you keep these features out of GCC, users > will go to Clang. If you keep Clang integration out of Emacs, users will > either maintain out-of-tree integration or (eventually) just fork Emacs, as > the various starter-kit packages have already essentially done. > > Free software is great, but if nobody uses it, the entire enterprise is > futile, sad, and ultimately irrelevant. How will the world be a better > place when almost every every free operating system and free development > environment is based on Clang and explicitly non-free derivatives are > rampant? > > > +1 It even make it look like free software can't do this. --f46d0438925996dd4d04f0d59d50 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= un, Jan 26, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Daniel Colascione <dancol@dancol.org> wrote:
On 01/25/2014 03:02 PM, Richard Stallma= n wrote:
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider =C2=A0 =C2= =A0]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]<= br>
We don't want to make a program's entire AST available for parsing<= br> because that would make it easy to extend GCC with proprietary
programs.

It would also have made it easy to add modern features to Emacs and other f= ree editors. Symbol table information is flatly inadequate given that in mo= dern languages, typing information is highly contextual.

Users will adopt tools that provide these features when FSF programs suppor= t these features or not. If you keep these features out of GCC, users will = go to Clang. If you keep Clang integration out of Emacs, users will either = maintain out-of-tree integration or (eventually) just fork Emacs, as the va= rious starter-kit packages have already essentially done.

Free software is great, but if nobody uses it, the entire enterprise is fut= ile, sad, and ultimately irrelevant. How will the world be a better place w= hen almost every every free operating system and free development environme= nt is based on Clang and explicitly non-free derivatives are rampant?


+1

It even make it look like free software can= 9;t do this.
--f46d0438925996dd4d04f0d59d50--