From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: James Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. 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That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256551 Archived-At: --000000000000a85dea05b0517276 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Some things don't need to sacrifice existing users for new users: * Having the documentation organized nicely * Interactive things For example, when I first wrote "DEADLINE:" under a todo in org-mode, why couldn't there be a pop-up poining me to a tutorial on how to sort by deadline? That's easier than learning the DEADLINE: syntax then specifically searching out a tutorial for it. And re the Cua mode argument: Why not ask the user what they're used to in a wizard, that activates with something like M-x setup. We can learn from IntelliJ Community Edition here.* *IntelliJ CE is free software. On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 1:32 PM Bob Newell wrote: > > In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs > beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say > right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience > is a worthy goal. > > It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users > learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know > that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first > from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing > and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial > and error. > > Could this have been more efficient? Yes, of course. But I did > I learn a lot in the process--- a very serious "lot"--- and it > cemented my knowledge and appreciation of what Emacs could, > and was already, doing for me. > > Do I advocate pure bumbling in the dark as a means of > learning? No. But perhaps guided bumbling is more of the > thing. > > We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a > very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such > tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser > tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in > lesser amounts.) > > While we can and should do all we can to make the road > smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely > different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other > "help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's > face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy." > > Emacs will continue to attract a certain audience. I'm not > sure that this is an issue per se. Nor (as I've said in the > past) do I mean this to be an elitist thing. Emacs has a > certain appeal to certain people. So does opera, baseball, or > liver and onions. > > Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started > with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line > information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code > samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks > politely. > > But in the end: do you become a chess master after reading a > "Chess Made Easy" book? Do you become a concert guitarist > after working through "Guitar Playing Made Easy For > Beginners"? > > Effort and reward go together, whether it's Emacs or anything > else that is deep and sophisticated. If someone wants instant > gratification, maybe Twitter is a better choice. > > -- > Bob Newell > Honolulu, Hawai`i > > - Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB > > --000000000000a85dea05b0517276 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some thi= ngs don't need to sacrifice existing users for new users:
* Having the documentation organized= nicely=C2=A0
* Interactive things=

For example, when = I first wrote "DEADLINE:" under a todo in
org-mode, why couldn't there be a pop-up poining me t= o a tutorial on
how to sort by dea= dline?

That's e= asier than learning the DEADLINE: syntax then
specifically searching out a tutorial for it.
<= br>
And re the Cua mode argum= ent:
Why not ask the us= er what they're used to in a wizard, that
activates with something like M-x setup. We can learn from
IntelliJ Community Edition here.*

*IntelliJ CE= is free software.

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 1:32 PM Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> wrot= e:

In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs
beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say
right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience
is a worthy goal.

It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users
learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know
that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first
from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing
and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial
and error.

Could this have been more efficient? Yes, of course. But I did
I learn a lot in the process--- a very serious "lot"--- and it cemented my knowledge and appreciation of what Emacs could,
and was already, doing for me.

Do I advocate pure bumbling in the dark as a means of
learning?=C2=A0 No. But perhaps guided bumbling is more of the
thing.

We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a
very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such
tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser
tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in
lesser amounts.)

While we can and should do all we can to make the road
smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely
different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other
"help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy."

Emacs will continue to attract a certain audience. I'm not
sure that this is an issue per se. Nor (as I've said in the
past) do I mean this to be an elitist thing. Emacs has a
certain appeal to certain people. So does opera, baseball, or
liver and onions.

Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started
with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line
information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code
samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks
politely.

But in the end: do you become a chess master after reading a
"Chess Made Easy" book? Do you become a concert guitarist
after working through "Guitar Playing Made Easy For
Beginners"?

Effort and reward go together, whether it's Emacs or anything
else that is deep and sophisticated. If someone wants instant
gratification, maybe Twitter is a better choice.

--
Bob Newell
Honolulu, Hawai`i

- Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB

--000000000000a85dea05b0517276--