From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: James Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:40:00 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f61c3b05b0518f41" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26739"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 27 22:42:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kMdUm-0006r2-RG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 22:42:08 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54792 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMdUl-0006dv-Rc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:42:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46298) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMdTN-0005lv-9r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:40:41 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]:36365) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMdTL-0006a5-67 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 16:40:41 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 60so7664634otw.3 for ; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 13:40:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=855qqnlfCxrvXTEyAqYp8VPlTcz5k2/D+rrKwsDVSZ4=; b=kI0Z7I3oWOxLn5QnzIbvsu07R88OCj8wAUpUW8vG5BR2Ocw0MwzJcvEwWBHv5zjgz5 P9SgPF0OF5fGXE8eofDeUkRrfEzwBI13FJt18nSJs7qagLSIQogYjvqMlJ/QsO3GJv2V xCz0oBhLq7sA3RyaNhCdbm7B0ndu6lxmKb+0Q0Bae9/OZL9+std31GXiHglSucN1VHlf 9Nbizv6kT5wdxp5Gpn5TYI+GuQ3Ka+LBk3DBMN0Lo9W3SGx3D312C2zOaaxhyjeTentp ZWosHJLbXMdljIng7rX5lTExqlOLqWVIvDnnCkiYOcurgJsbxyoUxyfKdx/FSSzbTi9i BjDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=855qqnlfCxrvXTEyAqYp8VPlTcz5k2/D+rrKwsDVSZ4=; b=OMxzsLrMs51drSJby9trOK/SIretikDHfg/Pg1hpoN36gSyVoUp5nV+y5xXreOiNXk aK5Ri6hVoLc0DaUDWWHY0vxWW/sSDuN/xAiLVGtOCrUPMcr+MCOIJV5eXJvfp3edMpiD ux+tpGyeD9Gx2eXnB+L98TnHbG86pXeystKyjgzOG9gMlZq/6Z8JhCqLTxLkWqFKCoVK BBqp6joz64Na6wQ07lB/JodtSN8iMe2j1aZyKjYWpVtcnYg3drCt04w5AL1Xif/XvFay d75M0zUfNDsl/GrGZyBJNk1RxXpy95eaWnpfuum76ApBZ6638KYSq+ZYmQ6/va/GZ2xf 7Ucg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533MdWyZ25YOrdRtLEWGyN6FYHo1piVT9JMyrT2iQoOjgaI9Iq4P pjWG6g9uLkWFXKRzjg4snDPRIqzq1riV5i84D3I6vAXKCsmTUQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxi6v2w79Ljj1aPtaHyfyLYqyQZ6ne5qH91qRnN1jGkBom+WqEiHaKethp404l8qq/l94qRxzOiv69K5VEnljI= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:7e83:: with SMTP id m3mr6927630otp.259.1601239237662; Sun, 27 Sep 2020 13:40:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f; envelope-from=jamtlu@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x32f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256555 Archived-At: --000000000000f61c3b05b0518f41 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > on Google, I get an helpful page from org-mode manual *an unhelpful On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 4:38 PM James Lu wrote: > Can your response be summarized like this? > > "Let's keep doing the same thing we're doing now > and get the same result we've been getting for decades." > > > > Today, there is a wealth of on-line > > information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code > > samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks > > politely. > > Sure, but when I search "emacs org-mode deadline agenda" > on Google, I get an helpful page from org-mode manual > as the first result. I want to sort by deadline, not see what's > due today. "I want to do X" guides don't appear. > > "emacs org-mode sort by deadline agenda" gets > me this that just tells me to follow another link and read > several more paragraphs: > https://orgmode.org/manual/Sorting-of-agenda-items.html > > Compare that to most task managers that simply show you > where on the GUI to do it. I want a guide and a lecture, not > a lecture and a puzzle. Even if it's a little puzzle, I shouldn't > have to think about it to do a task other people have done > before. > > Say what you will about it "taking time to learn." I think > the documentation is poorly organized. > > On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 1:32 PM Bob Newell > wrote: > >> >> In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs >> beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say >> right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience >> is a worthy goal. >> >> It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users >> learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know >> that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first >> from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing >> and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial >> and error. >> >> Could this have been more efficient? Yes, of course. But I did >> I learn a lot in the process--- a very serious "lot"--- and it >> cemented my knowledge and appreciation of what Emacs could, >> and was already, doing for me. >> >> Do I advocate pure bumbling in the dark as a means of >> learning? No. But perhaps guided bumbling is more of the >> thing. >> >> We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a >> very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such >> tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser >> tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in >> lesser amounts.) >> >> While we can and should do all we can to make the road >> smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely >> different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other >> "help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's >> face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy." >> >> Emacs will continue to attract a certain audience. I'm not >> sure that this is an issue per se. Nor (as I've said in the >> past) do I mean this to be an elitist thing. Emacs has a >> certain appeal to certain people. So does opera, baseball, or >> liver and onions. >> >> Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started >> with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line >> information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code >> samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks >> politely. >> >> But in the end: do you become a chess master after reading a >> "Chess Made Easy" book? Do you become a concert guitarist >> after working through "Guitar Playing Made Easy For >> Beginners"? >> >> Effort and reward go together, whether it's Emacs or anything >> else that is deep and sophisticated. If someone wants instant >> gratification, maybe Twitter is a better choice. >> >> -- >> Bob Newell >> Honolulu, Hawai`i >> >> - Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB >> >> --000000000000f61c3b05b0518f41 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0on Google, I ge= t an helpful page from org-mode manual
*an unhelpful

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 4:38 PM James Lu <= jamtlu@gmail.com> wrote:
Can your response be summari= zed like this?

"Let's keep doing the same thing we'= ;re doing now
and get the same res= ult we've been getting for decades."


> Today, there is a wealth of on-line
<= span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">&= gt; information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code
> sample= s, and help readily available to anyone who asks
> politely.<= br>

Sure, but when I search "emacs org-mode = deadline agenda"
on Google, I get an helpful page from org-mode manual
as the first result. I= want to sort by deadline, not see what's
due today. "I want to do X" guides= don't appear.

"emacs org-mode sort by deadline agenda= " gets
me this that just tell= s me to follow another link and read
several more paragraphs:
https://orgmode.org/manual/Sorting-of-agenda-items.html

Compare that to most task managers that simply show you
where on the GUI to do it. I want a guide and a l= ecture, not
a lecture and a puzzle= . Even if it's a little puzzle, I shouldn't
have to think about it to do a task other people have don= e
before.

Say what you= will about it "taking time to learn." I think
the documentation is poorly organized.
On Sun, = Sep 27, 2020 at 1:32 PM Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net> wrote:

In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs
beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say
right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience
is a worthy goal.

It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users
learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know
that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first
from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing
and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial
and error.

Could this have been more efficient? Yes, of course. But I did
I learn a lot in the process--- a very serious "lot"--- and it cemented my knowledge and appreciation of what Emacs could,
and was already, doing for me.

Do I advocate pure bumbling in the dark as a means of
learning?=C2=A0 No. But perhaps guided bumbling is more of the
thing.

We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a
very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such
tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser
tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in
lesser amounts.)

While we can and should do all we can to make the road
smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely
different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other
"help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy."

Emacs will continue to attract a certain audience. I'm not
sure that this is an issue per se. Nor (as I've said in the
past) do I mean this to be an elitist thing. Emacs has a
certain appeal to certain people. So does opera, baseball, or
liver and onions.

Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started
with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line
information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code
samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks
politely.

But in the end: do you become a chess master after reading a
"Chess Made Easy" book? Do you become a concert guitarist
after working through "Guitar Playing Made Easy For
Beginners"?

Effort and reward go together, whether it's Emacs or anything
else that is deep and sophisticated. If someone wants instant
gratification, maybe Twitter is a better choice.

--
Bob Newell
Honolulu, Hawai`i

- Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB

--000000000000f61c3b05b0518f41--