From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: James Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 21:33:53 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87lfdyaevd.fsf@red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e8c33705b68bb614" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8228"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: kfogel@red-bean.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Christopher Dimech Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Dec 16 03:35:30 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kpMf4-0001zT-0X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Dec 2020 03:35:30 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55430 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpMf3-0004r2-3I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 21:35:29 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33108) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpMe8-0003tn-PR for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 21:34:33 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb32.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32]:46710) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kpMe6-0004fE-DC; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 21:34:32 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb32.google.com with SMTP id w135so20919278ybg.13; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:34:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dxTm7flgwMRbBl0RsYtu1aq6E5HmOzCYIDRmbi9JJMQ=; b=diYCalo2ObfFLhz37zEKS0L2k9sghinyz4YkMf1jpkDpyOnMWOHRa/ouxO9RkKib0N g+X58cjuaS7L4D5lMYgot8Ixo6aBtnc0OUXK7QGxkgUbsIyhOYFClp4uosgygrBoQl4A 0YZ+kyED+Sd5KLqQoUybDgXkUq2PblBkrabnmyMTxCAQcRj222834537TZ4d7l6ZIjwo 24bYTnvdf6Tizg0VwdwwL95De/pBRuP+w3Nk/nH4LM6RLMWDYhEKMgWff/oOzuxbKJnD Q4lakhC65Lf5JvjmZXZe7SNedMeDPxh1lu9FKFr8KrYX6Aco7HaNw5QHuo3OiiN+g763 RA4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dxTm7flgwMRbBl0RsYtu1aq6E5HmOzCYIDRmbi9JJMQ=; b=h4EaYg5jHFfLp8fNkr+jVLeTA59t3dh5FjFsR/Viybs8cE/esiQsONAbaRFU/o2nwi gBqFYwQCVqtZR6szLilA5XepvWmQHFPjpbCqoE8J/CW/amnofKc2wlRi8blC44kC12Fu DY5Zznj1gaoKjI/hACV2do+ytpUSZuMRTBmnLihNwnkZoZt0stU3ogCsnl7/o8yda8o/ HEUulDmErmh4PARxY66RcvDVy6wXBR9Y0am9eRmF9juTLFORwxXPN8GL+Ly3rHteh6bz w4R03AzGcy8PlPc2eBUJ9El3i1aA36vuJJ2ms5LE0jKkeSn+mKh7WlELobd3bHZ17niA 7YOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531us4z6ZfTNfEccRAhyrBXcPUxV8P+m3g/n1iL5Q9E9/+vDzEnI nTrVM6vym9DmJytZVGSiZcYKl5kxNao9TTLF4Bg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwE8uKLimtm/yYWrxShJ4Ujxu7HbOvJLFKQ5bml1c7OdaK7N7nljfhJ8s7ZgtNSfYbz+iseQ94+UJgwnIAVW7U= X-Received: by 2002:a25:8483:: with SMTP id v3mr45040569ybk.166.1608086068968; Tue, 15 Dec 2020 18:34:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b32; envelope-from=jamtlu@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb32.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:260942 Archived-At: --000000000000e8c33705b68bb614 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have little experience with Emacs=E2=80=93 I can't really implement these= on my own. I would however subscribe to an "Emacs Support" service for a monthly fee. I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/month. But I'm sure other non-students could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support on a powerful editor. Start out small: Have more people than easily sustainable[0]. Then, slowly automate things by writing documentation and possibly interactive tutorials= . Gather the best. Thereafter, the service could be run as a SaaSS program that asks you questions and returns the correct tutorial, potentially creating a revenue stream for whoever makes it or GNU/FSF. [0]: http://paulgraham.com/ds.html On Tue, Dec 15, 2020 at 5:56 PM Christopher Dimech wrote: > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22 PM > > From: "Karl Fogel" > > To: "James Lu" > > Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode) > > > > On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote: > > >I spent months of my life researching todo app. > > > > > >Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ideal todo > > >list app, but every person complained it was missing one feature they > > >needed. > > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem. > > > > > >Either an app had too few buttons or too many buttons. > > >Emacs org-mode solves this problem. > > > > > >Let's stop messing with code. > > > > > >Let's start hacking. > > > > > >Clever hacking is doing the impossible. > > >Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them. > > >Let's start selling support plans. > > >Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend. > > >Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questions on > > >org-mode, and see public answers. > > > > > >Who's with me? > > > > Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above could b= e > successful. I encourage you to try them! But I think asking "Who's with > me?" is not a route to making them happen. As Eli Zaretskii replied to a= n > earlier post of yours back in September [1]: > > > > > Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a "why not do this > > > and that?" question. We don't have a means to tell some employee t= o > > > do this and that job. For a job to get done, someone motivated > > > enough should sit down and do it. The best candidate for that is > > > whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of course not > > > everyone who proposes something can actually implement it. > > There have been times where discussions led to significant improvements, > but mostly > concerned peripheral discussions where many could benefit - e.g., texinfo > output > mathematical expressions using Mathjax. For user specific things, one ca= n > get help > implementing an idea. The person raising the problem is almost always > more productive > when that same person works on it. Otherwise it would be a gamble that > can easily > lead to disappointments. > > > Best regards, > > -Karl > > > > [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.htm= l > > > > > --000000000000e8c33705b68bb614 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have little experience = with Emacs=E2=80=93 I can't really implement these on my own.

I= would however subscribe to an "Emacs Support" service for a mont= hly fee.

I am short of funds at the moment, so I could only pay $5/mo= nth. But I'm sure
other non-stude= nts could afford $10/mo or $15/mo for access to support
on a powerful editor.

Start out small: Have more p= eople than easily sustainable[0]. Then, slowly
automate things by writing documentation and possibly interactive= tutorials.
Gather the best.

T= hereafter, the service could be run as a SaaSS program that asks you
<= div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif= ;font-size:small;color:#000000">questions and returns the correct tutorial,= potentially creating a revenue
strea= m for whoever makes it or GNU/FSF.
<= br>
[0]:=C2=A0http://paulgraham.com/ds.html

On Tue, Dec 15, 2= 020 at 5:56 PM Christopher Dimech <dim= ech@gmx.com> wrote:

> Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2020 at 11:22 PM
> From: "Karl Fogel" <kfogel@red-bean.com>
> To: "James Lu" <jamtlu@gmail.com>
> Cc: rms@gnu.org, = emacs-devel@gnu.or= g
> Subject: Re: Let's make Emacs mainstream (through org-mode)
>
> On 15 Dec 2020, James Lu wrote:
> >I spent months of my life researching todo app.
> >
> >Every single todo list app would approximate some person's ide= al todo
> >list app, but every person complained it was missing one=C2=A0feat= ure they
> >needed.
> >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
> >
> >Either=C2=A0an app had too few buttons or too many buttons.
> >Emacs org-mode solves this problem.
> >
> >Let's stop messing with code.
> >
> >Let's start hacking.
> >
> >Clever hacking is doing the impossible.
> >Let's start writing GFDL guides and selling them.
> >Let's start selling support plans.
> >Let's start making Emacs org-mode a hot trend.
> >Let's make the website RMS suggested where you can ask questio= ns on
> >org-mode, and see public answers.
> >
> >Who's with me?
>
> Org Mode is very powerful, and some of the ideas you list above could = be successful.=C2=A0 I encourage you to try them!=C2=A0 But I think asking = "Who's with me?" is not a route to making them happen.=C2=A0 = As Eli Zaretskii replied to an earlier post of yours back in September [1]:=
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> Nothing in Emacs gets done because someone asks a &qu= ot;why not do this
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> and that?" question.=C2=A0 We don't have a m= eans to tell some employee to
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> do this and that job.=C2=A0 For a job to get done, so= meone motivated
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> enough should sit down and do it.=C2=A0 The best cand= idate for that is
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> whoever raises the issue in the first place, but of c= ourse not
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> everyone who proposes something can actually implemen= t it.

There have been times where discussions led to significant improvements, bu= t mostly
concerned peripheral discussions where many could benefit - e.g., texinfo o= utput
mathematical expressions using Mathjax.=C2=A0 For user specific things, one= can get help
implementing an idea.=C2=A0 The person raising the problem is almost always= more productive
when that same person works on it.=C2=A0 Otherwise it would be a gamble tha= t can easily
lead to disappointments.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0

> Best regards,
> -Karl
>
> [1] https://lists.gnu.org/a= rchive/html/emacs-devel/2020-09/msg02110.html
>
>
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