From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: James Lu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 17:04:45 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> <83y2kwpjfo.fsf@gnu.org> <20200926173651.GU1349@protected.rcdrun.com> <83sgb4pfvl.fsf@gnu.org> <20200926185824.GV1349@protected.rcdrun.com> <83lfgwpcbr.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000991dca05b03dcaa7" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="17965"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 26 23:06:37 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kMHOv-0004ZA-6a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 23:06:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59090 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMHOu-0007QB-7w for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 17:06:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56198) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMHNn-0006QI-BY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 17:05:27 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]:35316) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kMHNk-0005D1-M1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 17:05:26 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id s66so5798012otb.2 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 14:05:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=bE0ErR+4nReEKmDK73JtY9Qfy19sW2/F97wqy0VJREM=; b=GqJdZ+NTFWtSvUDnVsvbIpFeQ9fG5lN8rth1SRXFFZJ+Tb0eKhrLuawHIWjJ6iehXx mZJE5Oh38hikQrDT1i9I9ndn9tricxs2xnyCJFOOQgYFr92LJ1ko8cbj5Pk8QQJ+GSFh Y7LmQGUblEiMleWYuKZphQTRquqeqjWMPzItR7ZMSDCJqGYrxThadOBitlTaWOVbmufK Zez1XUtwzMTZz52CL7OmsPtmVa4uw0YrtlSecTe/Ebeckz+TYtSiWQRHke5yu+RlJFbE Ow0iaxPsCfZxe6nIVxIZyGbhXEPrFWePjFP7dKUIS0fI+mV5MTKuak8ddgobqboKimFa fleA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=bE0ErR+4nReEKmDK73JtY9Qfy19sW2/F97wqy0VJREM=; b=GUwIGuaBNgQoPs1kz+fYy8c3TOC6fJnpsOZ0dVVud2iGk7yQkn9yw4VmjwS05ywLJi srUdwMr3R7amc7ZYQntIaBji//AMGPRLlljC3UnAjqb/fHb/KYjz9vGqM4N/tKCCTJg1 rDDPyCUiq2T7RzsitQnciZqZ/O6gY1jPGetjlTEobOqP3Q8Kr9VpWpP/w1Olyktkv3Ct ooV/SRNQ946QTYqDP5yIG7jlbX+3GF9jwH+BBVzeEU6A5sOPwZrg931skgH8TkMrTS2h ifjQr19CB2MgQ/gOHjDQqwqVyrctXk9nI2PiLUqxxRlC1aAL4QQLUiUaZ+FH2pxhNZ0B mxLA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532tMXoEg9l8PDO91PkiEdp71VxuNPBwOehR+IvzYF2RgtW+p1Ax rvTl3mOXNrRii5065px+LPrw6DHRt18R1I5INjQxRlWNnpWl6g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxAIWdXP03x/uDPpbvhx3qpvhLx0tn3mU/gMi+jrRWoxR6Pi04YIaVogEsTjlc8JM8PSKdUSV252Bw15bcx0HQ= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:ae8:: with SMTP id 95mr4578407otq.260.1601154322077; Sat, 26 Sep 2020 14:05:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83lfgwpcbr.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::335; envelope-from=jamtlu@gmail.com; helo=mail-ot1-x335.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256500 Archived-At: --000000000000991dca05b03dcaa7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Go to a conference. Find some random person. You want a representative sample. Pay them to try Emacs. Then watch them use Emacs. https://www.nngroup.com/articles/why-you-only-need-to-test-with-5-users/ On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 3:28 PM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:58:24 +0300 > > From: Jean Louis > > Cc: jamtlu@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > > > It is your opinion. > > > > > > Each one of us expresses his or her own opinions. It's a trivium. > > > > Sure, but we talk about users, so to say that one cannot learn the > > stuff in general, should be supported by some kind of a survey. > > Same is true for your opinions. > > > The fact is right now is that not every tooltip is usable > > "Not usable" in your opinion. I disagree. > > > So it will happen to new user to get confused. Users expect tooltips > > to describe the function, and description shall be made better > > understandable. > > You (and anyone else) are welcome to suggest improvements. But the > fact that there's place for improvement doesn't yet mean that what we > have is unusable or confusing. > > > > > I tried finding what should undecided-unix mean, and I cannot find,= I > > > > just found that "unix" is alias for "undecided-unix". > > > > > > Type "C-h i m emacs RET i undecided RET", and read there. > > > > I did not find the definition for undecided-unix by following your > > example. That it is alias, does not define it. > > I don't think I understand why. Quote: > > The coding systems =E2=80=98unix=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98dos=E2=80=99, an= d =E2=80=98mac=E2=80=99 are aliases for > =E2=80=98undecided-unix=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98undecided-dos=E2=80=99, and = =E2=80=98undecided-mac=E2=80=99, respectively. > These coding systems specify only the end-of-line conversion, and leave > the character code conversion to be deduced from the text itself. > > (The previous text explains what is "end-of-line conversion".) > > > > Not "experienced", but one who have read some minimal introductory > > > material about the Emacs UI, and/or have learned how to use the manua= l > > > to search for (as yet) unknown concepts. > > > > For that group of people I disagree they need any tooltip > > then. Tooltip is for users to understand it, it is not for Emacs UI > > skilled people. It is for unskilled. > > I didn't say "skilled". Users aren't divided into those who know > nothing and those who are "skilled". There are many degrees of gray > in between. > > > > The logic is that when they find some term that is not clear, and the > > > text there doesn't have a hyperlink to where that term is described i= n > > > more detail (there usually is), then the user should go to the > > > Glossary and search the term there. > > > > Sure, you know it. But does it say anywhere? Does it guide the user? > > Having a glossary is one of the basic traits of any serious > publication. Not unlike having a TOC. I expect readers to know about > that and actively search for it. > > > > Once again, there are limitations of what can be usefully said in a > > > short menu entry and its tooltip. If you have practical suggestions > > > for how to use up the available screen estate better in that case, > > > please propose how to improve the wording we have there. > > > > I think that general principles shall be set first, as to improve > > wording, there are so many that could be improved, the descriptions > > should not be written in first place that do not describe it > > meaningfully. So I do not speak of a specific bug, I speak of general > > flaws hindering understanding for users. > > There are no "general flaws" in this context. These aspects of Emacs > documentation and UI were worked on for many years by many talented > people. So any flaws are likely specific and not general. > > In any case, speaking about "general flaws" without any concrete > details and concrete proposals for specific menu items or tooltips is > not a very useful investment of our time. So if this is what you > intend to talk about, I'm afraid I won't be able to continue > participating in this thread. > > > > > I am not speaking of myself Eli. I am speaking of new user viewpoin= t. > > > > > > So am I. > > > > Alright, then your viewpoint for new users is way advanced. > > Your words. I disagree. > > > So something like: > > > > Search files (Grep...) is using the external shell command "grep" that > > searches the named input files for lines containing a match to the > > given pattern. > > That is basically what the tooltip already says. > --000000000000991dca05b03dcaa7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Go to a = conference. Find some random person. You want a representative
sample.
Pay them to try Emacs.
Then watch th= em use=C2=A0Emacs.=C2=A0



On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 3:= 28 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>= ; wrote:
> Da= te: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:58:24 +0300
> From: Jean Louis <bugs@rcdrun.com>
> Cc: jamtlu@gmail= .com, emacs-de= vel@gnu.org
>
> > > It is your opinion.
> >
> > Each one of us expresses his or her own opinions.=C2=A0 It's = a trivium.
>
> Sure, but we talk about users, so to say that one cannot learn the
> stuff in general, should be supported by some kind of a survey.

Same is true for your opinions.

> The fact is right now is that not every tooltip is usable

"Not usable" in your opinion.=C2=A0 I disagree.

> So it will happen to new user to get confused. Users expect tooltips > to describe the function, and description shall be made better
> understandable.

You (and anyone else) are welcome to suggest improvements.=C2=A0 But the fact that there's place for improvement doesn't yet mean that what = we
have is unusable or confusing.

> > > I tried finding what should undecided-unix mean, and I canno= t find, I
> > > just found that "unix" is alias for "undecide= d-unix".
> >
> > Type "C-h i m emacs RET i undecided RET", and read ther= e.
>
> I did not find the definition for undecided-unix by following your
> example. That it is alias, does not define it.

I don't think I understand why.=C2=A0 Quote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The coding systems =E2=80=98unix=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98dos= =E2=80=99, and =E2=80=98mac=E2=80=99 are aliases for
=C2=A0 =E2=80=98undecided-unix=E2=80=99, =E2=80=98undecided-dos=E2=80=99, a= nd =E2=80=98undecided-mac=E2=80=99, respectively.
=C2=A0 These coding systems specify only the end-of-line conversion, and le= ave
=C2=A0 the character code conversion to be deduced from the text itself.
(The previous text explains what is "end-of-line conversion".)
> > Not "experienced", but one who have read some minimal i= ntroductory
> > material about the Emacs UI, and/or have learned how to use the m= anual
> > to search for (as yet) unknown concepts.
>
> For that group of people I disagree they need any tooltip
> then. Tooltip is for users to understand it, it is not for Emacs UI > skilled people. It is for unskilled.

I didn't say "skilled".=C2=A0 Users aren't divided into t= hose who know
nothing and those who are "skilled".=C2=A0 There are many degrees= of gray
in between.

> > The logic is that when they find some term that is not clear, and= the
> > text there doesn't have a hyperlink to where that term is des= cribed in
> > more detail (there usually is), then the user should go to the > > Glossary and search the term there.
>
> Sure, you know it. But does it say anywhere? Does it guide the user?
Having a glossary is one of the basic traits of any serious
publication.=C2=A0 Not unlike having a TOC.=C2=A0 I expect readers to know = about
that and actively search for it.

> > Once again, there are limitations of what can be usefully said in= a
> > short menu entry and its tooltip.=C2=A0 If you have practical sug= gestions
> > for how to use up the available screen estate better in that case= ,
> > please propose how to improve the wording we have there.
>
> I think that general principles shall be set first, as to improve
> wording, there are so many that could be improved, the descriptions > should not be written in first place that do not describe it
> meaningfully. So I do not speak of a specific bug, I speak of general<= br> > flaws hindering understanding for users.

There are no "general flaws" in this context.=C2=A0 These aspects= of Emacs
documentation and UI were worked on for many years by many talented
people.=C2=A0 So any flaws are likely specific and not general.

In any case, speaking about "general flaws" without any concrete<= br> details and concrete proposals for specific menu items or tooltips is
not a very useful investment of our time.=C2=A0 So if this is what you
intend to talk about, I'm afraid I won't be able to continue
participating in this thread.

> > > I am not speaking of myself Eli. I am speaking of new user v= iewpoint.
> >
> > So am I.
>
> Alright, then your viewpoint for new users is way advanced.

Your words.=C2=A0 I disagree.

> So something like:
>
> Search files (Grep...) is using the external shell command "grep&= quot; that
> searches the named input files for lines containing a match to the
> given pattern.

That is basically what the tooltip already says.
--000000000000991dca05b03dcaa7--