From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lynn Winebarger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Loading tramp for dump goes into infinite regress Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2022 07:24:11 -0400 Message-ID: References: <8735erhrlg.fsf@gmx.de> <83wnc2g0n8.fsf@gnu.org> <83sfmqfxcb.fsf@gnu.org> <83a68yfp6j.fsf@gnu.org> <83r129e1op.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14423"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: michael.albinus@gmx.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jul 26 13:27:49 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1oGIj7-0003eh-PC for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2022 13:27:49 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33820 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oGIj6-0000Ec-K2 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2022 07:27:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44216) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oGIft-00063t-8J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jul 2022 07:24:29 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x52b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b]:39672) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1oGIfr-0004q0-1i; Tue, 26 Jul 2022 07:24:28 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x52b.google.com with SMTP id q16so12878412pgq.6; Tue, 26 Jul 2022 04:24:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=md2908atFl2OTVqYRbwULJKUISfnYK9XUGp31IlBiGQ=; b=ng0PwRkO+g59UBLY/kDGtDMxBImM1MHM/0SmwygMsgkS8qN/qJpjsi9Xq+MVk+7oEz reOmgwuxsGMHVArN5Im8+Qsm8dX2u6O4b3sBdCA/CZfupJRiR5g7e1bmbp87OIP7RTFr o7UYEvEjF0FrYZ3V6iTuTzpvUddK3H6DoX+TAK32RhE9y+k6J7pX9jgC3+gT5Vbhwkzi 028pNeRC8voPQSrtxBI+d3bBzvUnC7v6T9Z0UKNzUTAoEOXV/kxZ1SJA/QbfeEaCAbhi t6kYB8C1O+6iGKOzC5pmxTY3m87cIBlDoTAbgHHSjp4L1vdofBRZqw+Iq2tbt32q64BE +bCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=md2908atFl2OTVqYRbwULJKUISfnYK9XUGp31IlBiGQ=; b=OaN16Y7QXT9fodi8yELUAyYa1Faf3RN2jB4Y8ySZtY3GYL3QvxGxN8vPBTSeAovGIX +18Cu6qGft6V9LKM7AzcKkw52m+0OVXCDANeE1VfZjYdvUEjKO2vKJEyXXnIz0Dp1EYh vs+hjLEeGfUUv0OSW3zhjr+Qem0yBw/cdE+0N0Fjb9uym7ttTmsjD1tmJUB7BuozFCTj tutHXIgsVmcc+zKj1VlAbINzL16wiTd6WrP5Chr2J1pcmy25gD9kMluUhZI7vbETv3Nh 2KnC+1OnhOzsI0LgsWr+2dPSb/Qi6g68TpiDM8MLjXHXc0/rLyFZYt3pAC4z1rxC7sli R+aw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora+srjY2q8eQhCriS0gFEkyC7mE3WRTkcTd+TM1ZwMHyo6pWDd1F uhdI7HYBapAJWNjiLXZXHdK5Z3AtuLyemsQ81kMl7Mbe X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1tWpdc/o0NecYTHpFk3JobusrwXQ+JK4U+yM/JtPvW3ZaUjUvvBjxJQWrO9vKs0dL/BUxxttQA4SELLrmqe4bI= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8887:0:b0:52b:17e8:fc7 with SMTP id z7-20020aa78887000000b0052b17e80fc7mr16810318pfe.35.1658834664734; Tue, 26 Jul 2022 04:24:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83r129e1op.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52b; envelope-from=owinebar@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:292673 Archived-At: On Mon, Jul 25, 2022 at 9:56 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > I am aware that dumping the eln files produces an indirection to the shared library, but not the details of the > > implementation. > > I would expect (or at least hope) that the effect of the evaluation that is done on loading to be stored in the > > dump and for the shared libraries to get loaded into the process without repeating the evaluation. So things > > like the order of customization groups should be fixed. > > It depends on the top-level forms of the package, and what they do. > If they change values of variables, those values will be dumped, yes. > > > I would also expect that whatever the effect is on the emacs process with .eln files loaded by the dumped > > file, it is no worse than it would be if loaded as part of my .emacs file. > > How is this different from the previous expectation of yours? I was describing my expectation of things like the shared-library and handle slots of the Emacs process at run-time (factors exogenous to emacs) versus endogenous factors like the state of the lisp heap. > > Another benefit I expect from native-compilation, dumped or not, is more efficient memory use when running > > multiple emacs processes. With dumping, I would expect (or hope for) better garbage collector behavior > > since the amount of allocation required for the loaded modules should be pre-determined (whether byte- or > > native-compiled). If the image is 300MB (including the shared libraries), so be it, as long as the memory is > > shared between multiple processes. > > I don't think I understand this expectation, and I don't think > natively-compiled code has any advantages wrt GC over the > byte-compiled code. This was a dumped versus non-dumped loading of native compiled libraries. Even if they are loaded sequentially in the same way (except for the load-time evaluation), the creation or modification of the heap from the pdump skips all the garbage collection cycles and fragmentation resulting from the initial evaluation. > > > I'd also like a baseline expectation of performance with native-compiled libraries in the dumped image. > > What kind of performance? > Startup time, memory usage, and responsiveness. > > > In any case, I'd suggest to get this working with *.elc files in a > > > build without native compilation support, before you try it with > > > native compilation. > > > > First I'll see if I can get the ordering straightened out with just the core emacs files required by these > > packages, then do a test between byte-compiled and native-compiled on those. > > I'm saying that your job could be easier if you did the first step > with byte-compiled files. Given that I can't seem to produce a bootstrapped dump without getting an incoherent eln file, I will be making one more attempt using byte-compiled versions of the files in site-load for the dump procedure, but with the native compiler enabled. In either case, I will also bootstrap with native compilation disabled for comparison. Lynn