From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lynn Winebarger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Instead of pcase Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 13:17:07 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87fs169mjj.fsf@posteo.net> <093f11a1-57c2-5e56-d39b-26fef1c67cbb@gutov.dev> <25942.25061.217864.329049@retriever.mtv.corp.google.com> <87zfzdcz6z.fsf@posteo.net> <763f067b-4ca9-1eba-9f3c-424c38589e9c@gutov.dev> <83fs0navpj.fsf@gnu.org> <838r6ebfhw.fsf@gnu.org> <83zfyu9wdg.fsf@gnu.org> <87edg69tup.fsf@linux-m68k.org> <83zfyq5gds.fsf@gnu.org> <83sf4i5ckp.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000eb2f5f060bb320bf" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18581"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , schwab@linux-m68k.org, emacs-devel To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 04 19:18:34 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rADWa-0004aF-BE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 19:18:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rADVa-0004yq-Cd; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 13:17:30 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rADVW-0004yJ-Oy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 13:17:27 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-x52f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rADVU-0008Oo-2Y; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 13:17:26 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-5c68b5cf14bso708783a12.0; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 10:17:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1701713840; x=1702318640; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2q8GigT6NPGXKnwYHJZw6axnGzzs3aRCowQQobNEXsQ=; b=Ty/MO+r4hI+CxweHPMV6u9rxntudbk+vnQIslHaWz3iC6ugAaXA0MoAjhmlxv8vLgK wjvncWvDAh0LofkzCBy4TVZ1PuGZH7R7LxokpYbl9YbfpjTuDEWNOGd+NVYt/ei7rblz qIoy0idbEpXSfBq4uARIz8J46/6s4kb4CytUdWWvkaqB/X2aStt7AtbASKvX/H5PXHrF GhO5UUGrlRRVRPP3umnRB1HHlEaqfwTQQjuZ4MdQpwSDRqztcddIU/Q+bXJ0Ai8aR+l8 McwMRRGE6K0akl1yzIGWrNMLRejHjdNdCSrzDCeyTyRszwjAAXudEKzD8PBFFFAOhj// TgDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1701713840; x=1702318640; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=2q8GigT6NPGXKnwYHJZw6axnGzzs3aRCowQQobNEXsQ=; b=QgT9p5Hjk3kIY1I6zPKT2mwnZE2C9EeJtFEQ+e66scw8V3SKt7UaYZP4y4r8sGhHr8 ELuzhgmoghje9y8Kp6F0MY8+Mthrop414aSUwNQj3lKO0+rrlhV1RxHZp1fjjPGD6LfX CQYQllRkk2GLzcODmllRIDb5qxsCFVeWq4ltv+ilLha2nkSej7lQNLpmrgZ1qU2t/Dhm 3J7Iwjtb4chD4Ui9FUVBh6ysGRRWjzwQ1ik4p2lug60CaHPQPxHgwZlu0Yc93sY4OmVX /XctBfuIV/S3w9g3wygNt2yLP5Efg6ODK0wsI3nlYr5mqIUjMqPsqqXr43qh0tfZWuMC mVFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyoK2nDF8luwjzovc9wzRdQ3IWkf7wPN808H2vFHJoj8/TBtlKG Ln9fy/zV3g9HvDWWloSjrtG2LMj21QovrRanofBcGVeJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IETBOfKSmTSoP0cHPKVuotC1hu7L1La9+McgaUht+j3+yuWkWeQ0dvNKO79iRnhKnszrKFVDMsuehMHvDXxeZ8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:1a12:b0:286:7616:4b7b with SMTP id 18-20020a17090a1a1200b0028676164b7bmr1538435pjk.95.1701713839598; Mon, 04 Dec 2023 10:17:19 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83sf4i5ckp.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::52f; envelope-from=owinebar@gmail.com; helo=mail-pg1-x52f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:313526 Archived-At: --000000000000eb2f5f060bb320bf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Dec 4, 2023, 8:20 AM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Lynn Winebarger > > Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 07:35:48 -0500 > > Cc: Richard Stallman , schwab@linux-m68k.org, > > emacs-devel > > > > Elisp will happily evaluate the expression > > (if . ( t . (nil . (t . nil)))) > > > > Would you, or anyone, say that reflects some flaw in the design of the > "if" form? > > No, but if someone writes such 'if' forms, I will ask them to rewrite > them. > > IOW, the fact that the Lisp reader will happily read something does > not mean it is easily understandable by humans, or should freely be > used in Emacs. > Right, it's a style issue. The issue Richard raised that I've begun to appreciate is that backquote is redefined in the context of patterns in a way that is not compatible with its definition everywhere else. I don't think the same could be said of the "," and ",@" read-syntax or symbols, because those symbols are not defined as macros themselves, only as auxiliary syntax in the context of quasiquotation. It should be fine to incorporate them as auxiliary syntax in the context of a destructuring macro, preferably with a reasonably consistent semantics. Lynn --000000000000eb2f5f060bb320bf Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mon, Dec 4, 2023, 8:20 AM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> From: Lynn Winebarger <owinebar@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2023 07:35:48 -0500
> Cc: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>, schwab@linux-m68k.org, >=C2=A0 emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
>
> Elisp will happily evaluate the expression
> (if . ( t . (nil . (t . nil))))
>
> Would you, or anyone, say that reflects some flaw in the design of the= "if" form?

No, but if someone writes such 'if' forms, I will ask them to rewri= te
them.

IOW, the fact that the Lisp reader will happily read something does
not mean it is easily understandable by humans, or should freely be
used in Emacs.

Right, it's a style issue.

The issue Richard raised that I've begun to apprec= iate is that backquote is redefined in the context of patterns in a way tha= t is not compatible with its definition everywhere else.=C2=A0 I don't = think the same could be said of the "," and ",@" read-s= yntax or symbols, because those symbols are not defined as macros themselve= s, only as auxiliary syntax in the context of quasiquotation.=C2=A0 It shou= ld be fine to incorporate them as auxiliary syntax in the context of a dest= ructuring macro, preferably with a reasonably consistent semantics.

Lynn

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