From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lynn Winebarger Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Grammar checking Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 13:30:06 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87sfdnyuxc.fsf@posteo.de> <83sfdl2z26.fsf@gnu.org> <58158ae49808189da7b2@heytings.org> <83mt3t2xz1.fsf@gnu.org> <86jzyxxqir.fsf@gmail.com> <58158ae4986fa602fe47@heytings.org> <83y1nbyb95.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36213"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: gregory@heytings.org, nasser.alkmim@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, m.eliachevitch@posteo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 01 19:31:33 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pif4f-000983-KD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 19:31:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pif3w-0000eC-5a; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 13:30:48 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pif3Y-0000cU-DJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 13:30:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1029.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pif3V-0005is-BX; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 13:30:24 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1029.google.com with SMTP id p3-20020a17090a74c300b0023f69bc7a68so26654821pjl.4; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 10:30:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680370218; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=ke3z6G6E5E0OtNZGx29qZkgbTE6xXu3lP3/APYWF79I=; b=XKP85woDjBxyF3y+d+8YBBirDKsH+F04gQcFOzb7DTyM69av8RCN60SOK8GQiTdgdy vB5eV54QC8D4j6R7jz2bmwBg9wKmPgu0649EwZjC3ccCYk1ea+Sbmy0OtjaWvCsYmYgi xUy9gyH/8IFAOmwWZNrv3r8WU6APqkeEG5yCh8PaYlpsmmnn37973lj5Iuo0V7XQbW63 bRS/Aq6C5Q52uV/yaSI5lmPbRDoKslVMJvBqbwvh+Yl8+IDUK+6DJT+xyuEiGBTmZOZL ao2gqrrajgtrnxWODKEEVtuGAK/9pYno0WRv94+w9lZMhJ9kNpSmG7EqCMq5BRL51cKZ CDeQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680370218; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ke3z6G6E5E0OtNZGx29qZkgbTE6xXu3lP3/APYWF79I=; b=VJil448iA7a1IHLqiuEGNDl7iNZK/vkz9YIGUP4o+HALctOH868cIrPG6Pncbow9F8 sjiWV0DSn3Om0nm8+78a3/gbyUow3/SD9+ydfQ1ok0XhuLkCaOR9fdhEg4ZUtroLalPg CxLn/pNkmfOJBf78+DmQVcFNGP23G+Vr+CZSI5c/MfEifJjtff5Z2e06yc9E9M1Z5nSc P4XEvnaX0iszW8F0bG2mpwMzWF7pR23PaJMrpft/q/wIy6MY6uw0Z4e3B+NVmJqYm6DW 4/8aeHNMelFeC3FvoYfXyh9kxP2jQEL3yUPCeYTyioodASgQCBG8WCC9F53fMQdDhlGw hE8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9fhNS3GqXOqaBYV9ktocr4J6XJ/4vMiVQHqphkw7civrEqmzRe1 mjaVE3DA6/XMuepJiyhHsWy9Q8R0QH4vU+7kmgimlwnHbpE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YkMjvGtqZcor+2fz1961IMDGP24n3TAnHssqp8I5foLMr6RWgA8eFOqV3tM3ioagRefw1KL+S8Vp4LoCFNnW4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:9dc9:b0:23d:3ff1:87b8 with SMTP id x9-20020a17090a9dc900b0023d3ff187b8mr9639929pjv.8.1680370218350; Sat, 01 Apr 2023 10:30:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83y1nbyb95.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1029; envelope-from=owinebar@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1029.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:305019 Archived-At: On Sat, Apr 1, 2023 at 9:37=E2=80=AFAM Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > From: Lynn Winebarger > > Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2023 08:59:50 -0400 > > Cc: Nasser Alkmim , Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, > > m.eliachevitch@posteo.de, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 4:49=E2=80=AFAM Gregory Heytings wrote: > > > > The one that works best for me is this Grammarly language server [1= ]. > > > It might give better results, but it's proprietary software. > > > > LanguageTool isn't proprietary software, but it is used for SaaSS > > where the "premium" tier appears to use rule sets that are not > > released with the base tool. LanguageTool.org is very clear in using > > the term "open source" rather than "free" to describe the software > > (and configuration files) for its "Basic" service. > > I don't understand what you are trying to say. LanguageTool is > distributed with its sources, and the code is under LGPL 2. The > "premium" version is not what we are considering. So where is the > problem with that? > > > Given discussions that have happened in the last few months on this > > list, I'm surprised the software maintained by the languagetool > > project would be considered suitable for introducing a dependency into > > core emacs. > > We are discussing a possibility of using LanguageTool as an external > tool with which Emacs will communicate, not as a dependency for the > Emacs core. I'll respond to this point first, then the question above, so the context is clear. I might have misunderstood - this thread arose because you mentioned that grammar correction was a higher priority than reimplementing spell-checking support, so I took it to mean the support would be included in core in the same way spell-c,hecker support is incorporated in the core, even though the actual spell checking is dependent on an external tool being available. Re "So where is the problem with that"? There may not be one - it's possible I'm misunderstanding the implications of the GNU coding standards. It seems to me there are three potential issues: 1) Violations of https://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/References.html#References if it is read to include references to SaaSS as equivalent to references to nonfree software. 2) Long term implications with regard to the set of grammar rules emacs encourages using 3) Concerns about trademarks and confusion as to whether "languagetool" is intended to reference the software or the product - not just legally, but with end users Regarding (1): Based on previous discussions on this list and https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html , I am extrapolating that the prohibition against linking to websites that promote non-free software also apply to websites that promote SaaSS. In particular: [[ BEGIN QUOTE ]] What about chains of links? Following links from nearly any web site can lead eventually to promotion of non-free software; this is inherent in the nature of the web. Here=E2=80=99s how we treat that. You should not refer to AT&T=E2=80=99s web site if that recommends AT&T=E2= =80=99s non-free software packages; you should not refer to a page p that links to AT&T=E2=80=99s site presenting it as a place to get some non-free program, because that part of the page p itself recommends and legitimizes the non-free program. However, if p contains a link to AT&T=E2=80=99s web site for some other purpose (such as long-distance telephone service), that is no reason you should not link to p. [[ END QUOTE ]] In this case, the language tool repository page clearly refers to the languagetool.org website. Furthermore, the basic grammar rules that are free are used as an enticement to consider the SaaSS. On languagetool.org's webpage, there is a FAQ, which includes the Q&A: [[ BEGIN QUOTE ]] Is LanguageTool free? LanguageTool is available in two versions. The free version corrects spelling as well as simple punctuation and some style mistakes. Only the Premium version will show you all errors and give you the best possible text. Team accounts for companies are also available. [[ END QUOTE ]] and then links https://languagetool.org/insights/post/premium-vs-free-produ= ct-updates/ with the text "Read more" So, it would seem to me referencing the languagetool git repository would violate the general prohibition. Of course, someone could fork the project to provide the source in a way that excises all such references. Regarding (2): Based on the text I just quoted about the (intentional) limitations of the free rule set, it seems that if emacs encourages the use of (local) languagetool servers, users will inevitably want to improve its performance. There are at least two ways that can play out: (a) that activity go into the repo languagetool.org maintains for "community" rulesets under the LGPL, so they may be included in languagetool.org's SaaSS (b) emacs developers/users establish a separate repository distributed under a copyleft, probably Affero-type, license to prevent their inclusion in languagetool.org's SaaSS I'm sure there are other ways, but these are the primary ones I can foresee. I guess my question is whether that is a position the GNU project is content to put its users in, especially as many users will probably be content with (a) or simply subscribing to the Premium service. (3) Presumably the trademark confusion can be worked around, it would simply take some care, i.e. be a slight headache. For me, this is primarily an intellectual exercise as I am not a contributor (due to legal ambiguities about my right to assign copyrights, not my willingness to do so), but I would like to understand how the standards are applied in this situation. Am I wrong about treating SaaSS consistently with nonfree software when it comes to promoting its use? Lynn