From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrew Hyatt Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: llm Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2023 22:48:17 -0400 Message-ID: References: <54c21d90-8bd6-8723-9e33-d69179b37bd0@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000061df940603157265" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33357"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Jim Porter , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Aug 17 04:49:29 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qWT4i-0008QL-VB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Aug 2023 04:49:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qWT40-00076b-9T; Wed, 16 Aug 2023 22:48:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qWT3w-00076K-G8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Aug 2023 22:48:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qWT3q-00008X-9r; Wed, 16 Aug 2023 22:48:38 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-4fe21e7f3d1so11684203e87.3; Wed, 16 Aug 2023 19:48:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1692240509; x=1692845309; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3AnpkTxiy2FgOcj575Nq29dn0n4+CHKU+AU+DunaOhU=; b=CP4RCREz+z4AsAY4zg/1e3R2cWZ/cwNZ082uLNNSoKXjMIwnIK+dN7HbCOO0RM3Hds J6IWeMGm1JncsfTOS53+zZXp5fTWzWYLpbPLliQJ8ek50wFeeJ5kPj3GMjtzeVYb3+x7 Jv9qVbT5+xKNkb7yWiKptma6ptjAaQ6GbQ2HeqPsYhXWsUeIjj/fHD7I8wuIdqsQgacC KTsVJJQpBIl/pOSS3EzN0lA2cDFjweUE0lfq+6Oi2V4vwOiwHUg2kjqSAR5p3fsD/uwB LZWfCJp4OogkDKue/guz2/eEXQ1Gp5Rhs8e5Mf5zlutCjued1dXt5Zua3hWujM8JV85k grIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1692240509; x=1692845309; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3AnpkTxiy2FgOcj575Nq29dn0n4+CHKU+AU+DunaOhU=; b=b+DY/zRd9L6FsctvSssq38UXVwA+V0QL27ZuBij1yEXdNy7IrIhvAYOnnJAkQOkQ+m WYLls63MdgcvT30gYCa9Y+XEmuZhwcV/o1OBQAkOar50zYkEUX1Q3o03OAlHjf8FqHzS /PsnxgRrXM7pEfd+yTicm+CinSLvxjNgxAxt7m0YnBK7yplkVrHhHd2GJHwSH2t/p0wZ fcY2gztILdPvpAffi1nmJkAPQrK+ig6jrgzP9Hm+Lw1tHFEktA10G0DDlo+klf/D0Te4 SA3Qh2AVLSH63MAY1CNnMrhwzyvqvRDU3jXnxDlv7elpaGJAqH0YMjaEgVYvpolvppJT sy5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxSl/iO1PXXzoDVZFrcpP6+FQsldHde+SBdx6LJIzOrmUnr3Pyj J/cGWtuJCG4yiMLzc9huKxInxr8WcHWT4hdA4FYpzuGJ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFZAjMejJ71pPF98rOIFxm/7CHVLUMwpqLOygbOtg9mT11b85jC+afWgXfCbgjQFPJlp+V/fL7dem406itdzQc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3d20:b0:4fb:8eec:ce49 with SMTP id d32-20020a0565123d2000b004fb8eecce49mr3865158lfv.31.1692240508476; Wed, 16 Aug 2023 19:48:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12c; envelope-from=ahyatt@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:308843 Archived-At: --00000000000061df940603157265 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 10:02=E2=80=AFPM Richard Stallman wro= te: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > Among other things, I'm curious about what the FSF would say > > about the *models* the LLMs use. Are they "just data", or should we > > treat them more like object code? What does an LLM that fully adheres > to > > FSF principles actually look like? > > I've been thinking about this, and my tentative conclusion is that > that precise question is not crucial, because what is certain is that > they are part of the control over the system's behavior. So they > ought to be released under a free license. > > In the examples I've heard of, that is never the case. Either they > are secret -- users can only use them on a server, which is SaaSS, see > https://gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html -- > or they are released under nonfree licenses that restrict freedom 0; > see > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.htm= l > . > > As I recall, we don't have a rule against features to interface > servers whose code is not released, and we certainly don't have a rule > against code in Emacs to interact with nonfree software _provided said > software is well known_ -- that is why it is ok to have code to > interact with Windows and Android. > > ISTR we have features in Emacs for talking to servers whose code > is not release. But does anyone recall better than I do? > There is the "excorporate" package on GNU ELPA that talks to exchange corporate servers (although perhaps there are free variants that also speak this protocol?). There's the "metar" package on GNU ELPA that receives the weather from the metar system. A brief search didn't find any code for that, but it might exist. The other interesting find was "sql-oracle", as well as other nonfree similar sql servers in the main emacs lisp. It is a server, although the interface used is local and mediated by a program. But it is an interface to a nonfree utility software. There is no warning given, but a message in `sql--help-docstring' asks the user to consider free alternatives. > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > --00000000000061df940603157265 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 10:02=E2=80=AFPM = Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wro= te:
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consi= der=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]<= br>
=C2=A0 > Among other things, I'm curious about what the FSF would sa= y
=C2=A0 > about the *models* the LLMs use. Are they "just data"= , or should we
=C2=A0 > treat them more like object code? What does an LLM that fully a= dheres to
=C2=A0 > FSF principles actually look like?

I've been thinking about this, and my tentative conclusion is that
that precise question is not crucial, because what is certain is that
they are part of the control over the system's behavior.=C2=A0 So they<= br> ought to be released under a free license.

In the examples I've heard of, that is never the case.=C2=A0 Either the= y
are secret -- users can only use them on a server, which is SaaSS, see
https://gnu.org/philosophy/who-does= -that-server-really-serve.html --
or they are released under nonfree licenses that restrict freedom 0;
see https://www.gnu.org/ph= ilosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.html.

As I recall, we don't have a rule against features to interface
servers whose code is not released, and we certainly don't have a rule<= br> against code in Emacs to interact with nonfree software _provided said
software is well known_ -- that is why it is ok to have code to
interact with Windows and Android.

ISTR we have features in Emacs for talking to servers whose code
is not release.=C2=A0 But does anyone recall better than I do?

There is the "excorporate" package on GNU= ELPA that talks to exchange corporate servers (although perhaps there are = free variants that also speak this protocol?). There's the "metar&= quot; package on GNU ELPA that receives the weather from the metar system.= =C2=A0 A brief search didn't find any code for that, but it might exist= .

The other interesting find was "sql-oracle&= quot;, as well as other nonfree similar sql servers in the main emacs lisp.= =C2=A0 It is a server, although the interface used is local and mediated by= a program. But it is an interface to a nonfree utility software.=C2=A0 The= re is no warning given, but a message in `sql--help-docstring' asks the= user to consider free alternatives.
=C2=A0=C2=A0

--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


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