From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Andrew Hyatt Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [NonGNU ELPA] New package: llm Date: Wed, 9 Aug 2023 00:37:16 -0400 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000624ca506027609ce" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35375"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: rms@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 09 06:38:36 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qTaxv-0008zL-45 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Aug 2023 06:38:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qTax1-0001lr-0L; Wed, 09 Aug 2023 00:37:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qTawu-0001lQ-8z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Aug 2023 00:37:32 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qTaws-0004MT-36; Wed, 09 Aug 2023 00:37:32 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-4fe0d5f719dso10543063e87.2; Tue, 08 Aug 2023 21:37:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1691555847; x=1692160647; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=b1Kef1opuZddVgIW6H9ZFBCbgNdRf2LdSorQM+/CsIw=; b=Lz8CSize7YRYyZ3/jmOTchBJinFcjO2QPV/UMmIHHMMHbY5ZIW+iWCjHKjw0ezmqJi Gpg+oC9vWgWXvKUv7bJ0dFw09MukAH+lRnIWf9CqCunSms8o5Dseyl7JtTJswFXRhxcJ DbgPBSQYJKDtVGXK2fOXYbDfBo+SBsswJamiklSl2/UNtuqIx5gnqU76X3REE07Rh5rq OHtOGDxXyw2StTETJv3X7O+9oUcKly+vhBxPYwGqh+5m32+fWhq0oP7QP9JJHJJnt6yx qMG/PES+ho+XjXU3Cwk2Gje0LxQqa090qexHQMlQCfKyQpGXd80mmPrvu+oEzP/3jLHI iqEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1691555847; x=1692160647; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=b1Kef1opuZddVgIW6H9ZFBCbgNdRf2LdSorQM+/CsIw=; b=SD4+qiRrVUTcL5b3IkpiHhSQp6wOskN/RMjXDGX3RJU6pgaulfPM8hMF8SIcNse27k /zrue7vTHid/BW4MHLc//s9lZROW5Z3nVGceWT5zQbYNMhuwjZEPAruNZyaXE6HvI7pf C7T+KfZ0ILSU+gOeKcTeNzfXer0YvonBPDO6Qu3FEBNbBr0AR73M+TDxTrvIQXI8PCuu 1TffR7U8sNxbBtoviqmeYmB17xGfMh/v3ztg9Ot5xrLQ5g/Szo1bDhpRG+ZRL2BPUDuX n0rYaW4QeImlsmOaB7cDB3edWpoDNSwDPtLjklyyBsyNjtb/CIBervKTHqRprWlT8SeG /AOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxW0v7tyBdGiblSww1o5gp9itqp13MqEeoa2vwS4wG7tRitJGal 44ZcB46DH5pFifsCiekeHPlZbVe+E/5uNOfbusCMBie2mGc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IETSiynsrttsHRp/UAU73vVr2K4QmbZjyYmY6ON4sEbHrBkTCWMf4q3cddCmTp2FWJNy7vgsWcJOkrqvFIm31g= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:57cd:0:b0:4f8:7772:3dfd with SMTP id k13-20020ac257cd000000b004f877723dfdmr799711lfo.11.1691555847095; Tue, 08 Aug 2023 21:37:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::136; envelope-from=ahyatt@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x136.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:308454 Archived-At: --000000000000624ca506027609ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 11:47=E2=80=AFPM Richard Stallman wrot= e: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > All the large language models are unjust -- either the models > are nonfree software, released under a license that denies freedom 0 > ( > https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.htm= l > ), > or they are not released at all, only made available for use as SaaSS > (https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/who-does-that-server-really-serve.html). > > If a language model is much better known that GNU Emacs, > it is ok to have code in Emacs to make it more convenient > to use Emacs along with the language model. If the language model > is not so well known, then Emacs should not mention it _in any way_. > This is in the GNU coding standards. > > If Emacs is to have commands specifically to support them, we should > make those commands inform the user -- every user of each of those > commands -- of how they mistreat the user. > > It is enough to display a message explaining the situation > in a way that it will really be seen. > > Displaying this for the first invocation on each day > would be sufficient. Doing it more often would be annoying. > What you are saying is consistent with the GNU coding standard. However, I think any message about this would be annoying, personally, and would be a deterrent for clients to use this library. How about this, which I think would satisfy your concerns: We contribute ONLY llm.el, which mentions no implementations of LLMs, no companies, and no specific language models, to GNU ELPA. With only the interface, I believe there is nothing to warn the user about, and the clients have something in GNU ELPA to code against. If some day there is an LLM that qualifies for inclusion because it is sufficiently free, it can be added to GNU ELPA as well. All implementations can then separately be made available on some other package library not associated with GNU. In this scenario, I wouldn't have warnings on those implementations, just as the many llm-based packages on various alternative ELPAs do not have warnings today. If it still seems wrong to you to have an interface in GNU ELPA whose most popular interaces today involves non-free software, then perhaps it might be best to leave this package out of GNU or Non-GNU ELPA for now. I think that would be a shame, since the flexibility it provides is likely the only good hedge against over-reliance on SaaS LLMs, especially in the case that acceptable llms are developed. Such llms are likely available today (research ones come to mind), however I don't have good visibility into that world or the likelihood they would be useful to emacs users. > > Would someone please implemt this? > -- > Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) > Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) > Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > > --000000000000624ca506027609ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Aug 8, 2023 at 11:47=E2=80=AFPM R= ichard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrot= e:
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consid= er=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]<= br>
All the large language models are unjust -- either the models
are nonfree software, released under a license that denies freedom 0
(https://www.gnu.org/philo= sophy/programs-must-not-limit-freedom-to-run.html),
or they are not released at all, only made available for use as SaaSS
(https://www.gnu.org/philosophy= /who-does-that-server-really-serve.html).

If a language model is much better known that GNU Emacs,
it is ok to have code in Emacs to make it more convenient
to use Emacs along with the language model.=C2=A0 If the language model
is not so well known, then Emacs should not mention it _in any way_.
This is in the GNU coding standards.

If Emacs is to have commands specifically to support them, we should
make those commands inform the user -- every user of each of those
commands -- of how they mistreat the user.

It is enough to display a message explaining the situation
in a way that it will really be seen.

Displaying this for the first invocation on each day
would be sufficient.=C2=A0 Doing it more often would be annoying.

What you are saying is consistent with the GNU c= oding standard.=C2=A0 However, I think any message about this would be anno= ying, personally, and would be a deterrent for clients to use this library.= =C2=A0=C2=A0

How about this, which I think would s= atisfy your concerns:

We contribute ONLY llm.el, w= hich mentions no implementations of LLMs, no companies, and no specific lan= guage models, to GNU ELPA.=C2=A0 With only the interface, I believe there i= s nothing to warn the user about, and the clients have something in GNU ELP= A to code against.=C2=A0 If some day there is an LLM that qualifies for inc= lusion because it is sufficiently free, it can be added to GNU ELPA as well= .=C2=A0

All implementations can then separately be= made available on some other package library not associated with GNU.=C2= =A0 In this scenario, I wouldn't have warnings on those implementations= , just as the many llm-based packages on various alternative ELPAs do not h= ave warnings today.=C2=A0

If it still seems wrong to you to have an interface in GNU ELPA whos= e most popular interaces today involves non-free software, then perhaps it = might be best to leave this package out of GNU or Non-GNU ELPA for now.=C2= =A0 I think that would be a shame, since the=C2=A0flexibility it provides i= s likely the only good hedge against over-reliance on SaaS LLMs, especially= in the case that acceptable llms are developed.=C2=A0 Such llms are likely= available today (research ones come to mind), however I don't have goo= d visibility into that world or the likelihood they would be useful to emac= s users.

=C2=A0

Would someone please implemt this?
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)


--000000000000624ca506027609ce--