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(was Re: Shorthands have landed on master) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2021 13:41:35 +0100 Message-ID: References: <16338bdc2497fc51c6fb6d54ab370bfb@webmail.orcon.net.nz> <874ka5gsqa.fsf@gnus.org> <25d8d72022b571db5291@heytings.org> <87h7e2xsl5.fsf@gmail.com> <25d8d72022e1ea7ed022@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000008cf9c05cd35c54b" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24888"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: =?UTF-8?B?QW5kcsOpIEEuIEdvbWVz?= , Phil Sainty , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Richard Stallman , emacs-devel To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 30 14:43:43 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mVvPa-0006H1-J6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 14:43:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34758 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVvPZ-0003Jl-5F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:43:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52440) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVvNm-0001ij-73 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:41:50 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]:50954) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mVvNk-00044d-6b; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 08:41:49 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id k23so4130903pji.0; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:41:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pVwYy8dUm7gdDi+Ng8qrFJgHGU9eXYSY5GdmXlaHVqk=; b=J5ij8YzBHIFRI18SGKkbrUY7w5oJMnV9iJKR2iTT7T+iQSPjbOhu/TB3/HWIUr8eTf dmj7Gf7rtfMDRKUUchCUoXx3Zgi7zZsqmGNq1Gyupia8DvV9XlrOcp+VHFIKgPf5s0qk 8m+730Cs5pvRLkW13/AUSair8GcMr+eufKAt2HJrSmSHcOT+MWf/VNtQmDJnh1OsZqgT U2zUaGZvsagogIX28aWbGj6d+5eWE/gzg5S8fcuP6ooMfQcUNeU1nTyDwMNWoskhBIer HrzxrPnq/1oGfoxUx6cEXSKQesuHanNcNGtxv3KaDnTBey4ohv3UvQSru0wxZcix8s7C t/rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pVwYy8dUm7gdDi+Ng8qrFJgHGU9eXYSY5GdmXlaHVqk=; b=YxPTNBiKGNvQmztyjKZSum8/jCLMYvNUlvoEswp/Hd9Xx5ZR77l/t3M8OG0dysZfAQ 8b86aVgmZnlw/feX96Nkk+eHUNng8JnnWphf89O5Wvn+SOpyQ0enWugegJa2wOqFqswW K80IXQSI8+UmoJCElz3rZz7lnND3iixQOlr++HbpxYskPjhUDPv0zKuBXAP9zlSW6pLs h7d/yzmFeCdauh8gD5q8jPK7Ts3wNV206T/2TFX452wPPYViOKPZz6U6k9cCeqMawbDb wjxbLLitPKAmtg6Wx3px+XZ8K4BX0ABts6hKXdxdTXHSSDUhm7tinkAhvSFLek4LCwK0 zcnA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530Aah9xu5Fyq+ZWOsvZa2QAS59iSdR5BY1+kwBvzyyNhb51FeCR UcYie4pSLKt0hxCbh65NTk41InhfPPFzsG1NOSE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzJBzNXAQG7qKcvFrdA2/9ghZeReF3+VJwa0Wo2YveaB1ncK+jDMkFElV5vVxGR4JueeYKO7StHbFUjks6sefw= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:a60e:: with SMTP id c14mr892176pjq.70.1633005706201; Thu, 30 Sep 2021 05:41:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <25d8d72022e1ea7ed022@heytings.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x1036.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:275883 Archived-At: --00000000000008cf9c05cd35c54b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 12:46 Gregory Heytings wrote: > > but it's the wrong tool. > > And what is/what are the "right" tool(s) for the above use case? > Tools that understand the symbolic nature of the Lisp family of languages. For the examplw you have since, Tools that rely on way or the other really on the 'read' Lisp primitive. xref-find-definition does. xref-find-references doesn't, yet, as far as i know. C-h f is fine, and so is completion-at-point. Grep, as you very well note, is already flawed, not only for Lisp, but for many languages. By "flawed" I mean: it is not suitable for categorically answering questions e.g. about how functions relate to each other (callers and callees). It fails even on C, for example by the mere existence of comment blocks. Should comment blocks be outlawed in C? In contrast, in some common lisp IDEs you have such tools and expose this database. Xref in Emacs was originally derived from work of a Common Lisp programmer, which created the amazing SLIME, which you may have heard of. SLIME (and my fork of it Sly) are indeed able to use these databases. Andr=C3=A9's comment is very accurate. In SLIME, one eats Lisp with a spoon= , not a fork. Jo=C3=A3o --00000000000008cf9c05cd35c54b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Sep 30, 2021, 12:46 Gregory Heytings <gregory@hey= tings.org> wrote:
> but it's the wrong tool.

And what is/what are the "right" tool(s) for the above use case?<= br>

T= ools that understand the symbolic nature of the Lisp family of languages. F= or the examplw you have since, Tools that rely on way or the other really o= n the 'read' Lisp primitive.

xref-find-definition does. xref-find-references doesn't, y= et, as far as i know. C-h f is fine, and so is completion-at-point.

Grep, as you very well note, is= already flawed, not only for Lisp, but for many languages. By "flawed= " I mean: it is not suitable for categorically answering questions e.g= . about how functions relate to each other (callers and callees). It fails = even on C, for example by the mere existence of comment blocks. Should comm= ent blocks be outlawed in C?

In contrast, in some common lisp IDEs you have such tools and expose t= his database. Xref in Emacs was originally derived from work of a Common Li= sp programmer, which created the amazing SLIME, which you may have heard of= . SLIME (and my fork of it Sly) are indeed able to use these databases.

Andr=C3=A9's comment is= very accurate. In SLIME, one eats Lisp with a spoon, not a fork.

Jo=C3=A3o
=

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