From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:21:58 +0100 Message-ID: References: <0c88192c-3c33-46ed-95cb-b4c6928016e3@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="74238"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , Emacs developers , Stefan Monnier , =?UTF-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= , Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams To: Philippe Vaucher Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed May 06 21:22:48 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jWPd1-000JCu-2h for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 21:22:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55892 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWPd0-0008QO-4l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 15:22:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44232) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWPcU-0007rN-Fv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 May 2020 15:22:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]:34924) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWPcT-000247-Gx; Wed, 06 May 2020 15:22:14 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id y26so3492139ioj.2; Wed, 06 May 2020 12:22:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yk3mZrDQRZHC0IkQJ1Drzz4roh1v1hR7fsNPVt51rtw=; b=bxkVdqLdH74wTT+GhmsQgC9/yZo10OQisL5rQlKkgEgLHWaHbmXj1yuslSbQVU9TpY Qxjq/9KolNHLGvLsYR8/ElLHhwgMBE9xHQMUR7WbDhAGlnsqZ4PRPyEYyqHF7TTAcpMs RwdiKuHavXTgnzhgjF2VXMipKiJcC3xTv6q9zSi0KQP/Xps505t3SrYHC1wkXQv5mC4C VOP5CcS4mbl18QKuZfdNfnr8wEmRnNDxJVSlvkIJw57P+WYNyVG1EhkxvNHIHegJI+Nr k2RCkUrGVp1YTI/+Q/njSNeUQRAnxVUQVuF2ctBKeJf/rTwkgcjCQeaO/DMorqQwGAvS bGwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yk3mZrDQRZHC0IkQJ1Drzz4roh1v1hR7fsNPVt51rtw=; b=P4d8OVzNE8ZTk2db28K+73wCsY3x6HpAy4FQg8DIYMeOSKqGZiFhVZ7Yr4w6WSp4T6 j/l0ALIaAwBHrAOID9D7UETg+/edPsMGdyKiQ8DqP7xtfQD2w84MiT7RTqLtKNgTgh8s RuX4wq8xcHaQ7MK0s2QmBRFTXjAfWnJrYyV/rboOy7f6Kb6HRGZZW3xY7Gq8Emagr9O8 T5yXR+fUl8feGs9fRDsiqgT/N0PBEB3chA65CVDE9BUIn/QA5KykUYr+1TglMa2Ykc1w EWwEcTcmMz7FTv6v/62vgmWh8tnx7fgXTEPVtwYj3ClaU5O4wRmpCn19QafMmssx0jQQ pS/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua/bJRbrEVhk3/dCYFFhN9mN3v4vMpVIrAFcL1uZXXyqvusKdDg o+JMrfojYeDTFa8QbWB56B5aDTHDaskg3G6ZSLo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLpiyp4T0axmsOHi+CNb4ddKiE1fuHxOI+rv91cdCwXI3kGtjScSiXcbJIgiL3KWfOekkugcYgXOT7q7gW+7yY= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8dc2:: with SMTP id p185mr10121150iod.138.1588792930504; Wed, 06 May 2020 12:22:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd31.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249114 Archived-At: On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:20 AM Philippe Vaucher wrote: > > >> Out of curiosity, say "real" namespaces land in Emacs, do you reckon > >> we'd be able to agree on reasonably well-defined topics? > > > > Sure, I think so. If they were here today, you could have > > the s.el library under the "modern-string" namespace > > or "magnar-string" namespace or something like that. I don't > > see it'd be contentious. In your library, you could then somehow > > indicate you'd like to use the "magnar-string" namespace > > and have access to what is now "magnar-string-empty-p" > > under just "empty-p". Or maybe you'd prefer to indicate > > you want to use the "magnar-string" namespace under > > the "s-" local nickname. Then you can type "s-empty-p" > > as you're used to. Same thing with dash.el that so many > > people like. > > Very interesting. To me it looks like we cannot agree on prefixes > already... thus I infer that if namespaces would work, then the > current disagreeing is about "any renames" more than disagreeing with > the "prefix" (namespace) chosen. Putting things in namespace would not > be seen as renames, because they can still get the "untouched" names > experience. Yes, I think so. Today we can agree on a prefix by choosing a long or unique enough name that everyone agrees won't impact them. That happens all the time. But it's clear that s.el and dash.el want to be (very) short-prefixed, by their very nature, otherwise they lose their charm. So namespaces are a way to get that opt-in, instead of wholesale or indiscriminately. My problem with renames or aliases on "core" symbols is like Richard's, I think. It burdens my mental model and it burdens my discovery techniques, which include C-h f and C-h a. So my logic is: if we're going to do that in the name of a good and discoverable library that also wants to be readily accessible, we might as well work on ways to get to that objective in ways that don't have those drawbacks _and_ kill the possibility of that library. My personal opinion on the s.el library, which isn't very positive, doesn't matter here. It should not be excluded because of a namespacing issue. Jo=C3=A3o