From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 11:14:31 +0100 Message-ID: References: <0c88192c-3c33-46ed-95cb-b4c6928016e3@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="8814"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Stefan Kangas , emacs-devel , Stefan Monnier , =?UTF-8?B?7KGw7ISx67mI?= , Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 07 12:15:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jWdYq-0002Av-1F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 12:15:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50220 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWdYo-000284-W8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 06:15:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42460) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWdYE-0001VT-Vf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 07 May 2020 06:14:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-il1-x134.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::134]:37514) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jWdYE-0007Ib-1M; Thu, 07 May 2020 06:14:46 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-il1-x134.google.com with SMTP id n11so917197ilj.4; Thu, 07 May 2020 03:14:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KFX4SexW3vdDVTVQruvzIKn7PFyVphgyQQYp3mMULPs=; b=AKTSyR/4DbaRc+3U+poFXQsh5F+vlPJffxzpQlx5ryJyB+YM1xCg4TaHqZ1W6pJ3Jv K5d0D9wUwQztJbrLZOXGwTW1BLqYIlFaOh0umM2RejtzQxMOLn1dBfaLa9SoObtstxn/ UFAwZrv4yzvhwIliwnQOHhvPYqcJtRcaDlP59SgDITCc/Oq88/Ha0asXNWeS+j06bPAN TuFTzzQxOoF5oTIQt/gbPhdAvD+hi7Te3fFqBCo3aNomNgZB8k0DIXsHmwQrW5TNxZV1 wrRAO72AxzVydnNWgXMZiDx5xrjeDuZEwz1l3nPijK5Uow95mJgaqdeaYc4z42+DbggE 7Dyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KFX4SexW3vdDVTVQruvzIKn7PFyVphgyQQYp3mMULPs=; b=OHbRO/Q6q1BWdDNjV7QlfRysptB4z6JxYyckOKAdCV5dx6tvJsILJo/pAbgCB76nLG 7TM9uiR2N0Kwbi2SxIYXYmYsJlwqO2LbDjlDBAFGw7Z+KmjSoXHX5/NlbhutnPKPowIX uChM4Uko+lUGu0qkfDZHxlTkx9Vc7RSCOVTcXKn+4miQ9o4cMOWw7JAIYCvcfgxYeesM IZoPNnlda5SXkMPmj6apYVmDGsJIeWBy3Qbi3UsUOOWORndyjPrtjPAqf8GLbQr+ODP/ o3rA0p7nV0RkLjtkWnt1/RPOFVXVSlI1g61YVV30o2dwfmTBISZKeSMlKtfM9LU1QTPg 1AcA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuaLPBc3GY/3AWNFa69NVpXR1K18kOs6RbuHBGugctlvUTbQ8vgU 2xZmbFh4Jv/F7iEJN5BYU2Hahkj9Akh0AN5659hAg14QwaI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLrXKyhLbzo0/Jx1ynMQ69Om+xmm+FxMEXlR1v+PR0Q/n4IbByfRTGYbgq6/tVrRiQRL5jBCxwujyhRzAomZv0= X-Received: by 2002:a92:9e11:: with SMTP id q17mr14035918ili.137.1588846484052; Thu, 07 May 2020 03:14:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::134; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-il1-x134.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:249160 Archived-At: On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 3:45 AM Richard Stallman wrote: > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > not to let widely used and Free software into our > > universe just because we don't have the technical apparatus to > > control the damage it would bring with it. > > You have stated an inaccurate picture of the situation, but I can't > respond to that statement on a technical level because you have mixed > personal criticism into it. If you bring up the issues in purely > techical terms, I can respond in that way. You've completely misunderstood me, Richard. I was not attacking your position at all, much less attack you personally. Or Stefan. I *agree* wit= h you: puting s.el in Emacs or GNU ELPA is not good *for* exactly the reasons you state. But I also *agree* with Stefan, when he laments that that libr= ary which is free software and used widely in third party package can't easily be added to GNU ELPA and/or Emacs. Now, what I stated is that it would be immoral to permit this to continue: Immoral is a strong word. I should have used "unfair" or "untenable". Let me try again: Is is untenable not to let widely used and Free software into our univers= e just because we don't have the technical apparatus to control the damage. Q: What damage is that? A: Namespace pollution from a package with a very short prefix. Q: What could we do to control it? A: Change the package to not have a very short prefix. Q: What is the problem with that? A: Many package users like = it and already use it with the short prefix. Q: So what could we do, technically, to remedy the situation? A: Provide a way for the package to have a longer prefix *and* package users to use it with a short prefix. This is my only and main contribution to this discussion. I have surveyed existing solutions to last question and have counted about 4 or 5 existing ones, and many new ideas. Thank you, Jo=C3=A3o