From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: transient Date: Sun, 3 May 2020 17:50:24 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87368npxw4.fsf@bernoul.li> <87v9ljo5d0.fsf@bernoul.li> <87ftcnxu5m.fsf@bernoul.li> <83y2qezlpd.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv12zjx1.fsf@gnu.org> <20200429101755.GF24737@tuxteam.de> <838sicw4do.fsf@gnu.org> <83zhaqu89z.fsf@gnu.org> <83sggiu2p9.fsf@gnu.org> <83r1w2s9wi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v9leqmss.fsf@gnu.org> <83zhapoz63.fsf@gnu.org> <0a13f7e1-61c7-1e78-22bc-a27c15c269e7@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="60766"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , tomas@tuxteam.de, emacs-devel , Stefan Monnier , Richard Stallman To: Dmitry Gutov , Philippe Vaucher , Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 03 18:51:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVHps-000Ffk-45 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 18:51:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53210 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVHpr-0004fH-5I for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 12:51:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42254) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVHp9-0003EG-Nj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 12:50:40 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-il1-x131.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::131]:41664) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVHp8-0002HC-Q6; Sun, 03 May 2020 12:50:39 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-il1-x131.google.com with SMTP id f82so9055531ilh.8; Sun, 03 May 2020 09:50:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DGfRNl7bnspBrWubcj6Aug1CM+opNFGkVswO7t62LYk=; b=jHHJedYm6BQ+SFyjS3Qy5Xp1yfWCMuJtmgSbJtVXdyQ8Fd8bCRD9vfZHqeqRDszUu3 Q2Uw5E5coPZpwOvxT7eJQ4HdzFoJZTmwnys0vg8eHIFk7xivcGd54oS74DWL0rwVuYNx kgIZ5SqpXqB/pgg4nAWf7+oJiDkP2nCriRE4Kryo4fgSb4Kgi46djzTVlIPWhfBwuZiP Bdyw5+yzP0C1IQw+uIdfn4jZH2boyOI4VuB/D09B+YUcGtkIcMo9As6EC2kyrFxqt2zQ H9vvQfJ5E8NumbKW7JTCQs8C9ntVU24tRzVk9xQxnG8zevN5mUDSoBBVAVXY0OCO+hOU Xoaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DGfRNl7bnspBrWubcj6Aug1CM+opNFGkVswO7t62LYk=; b=NshjXiVrm72Hlc3iR2LYTDdrkbSGRZ7zVq5dHvsXTqgZDXTnYrKj4t86REGtNSa0HF UGWTi9k4vlAOt+zwomX2c1gv4zGWbIjJ/PLJT34d1n2hX6LGMAqnvG2EMDXrs8mfl8gy Axf79H20lhahE/OK1cyd9Z+I05YgdStE75/uXYeXVbbyXKcdUD15S1T5bYmTg6+sUNmp v1ev9y1qu9fhTbK2PWOViab6uiP1IrUg6Dc/ZkiZQWlFluJgeMrM2rqotbfUV4SOe72X gYWXZXF6UctJDRjQdDM3u1V4WX86qvXuhZSbg2lBAlXz6mkgEMPD+aGRZiBwW2LjQvjj 5uPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuZyIapCEECcqFz/JXJOPDJs7xZP6itIrmX3rIaMvUTS2cnIGEDY jocx29i8fhzGYTuShBinL8GumgwIv/OS46v8Hs0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypJBCstGXRzjPM5FTk9N+tocYU9EgDMzqqcjkQVfT1D9Kiu7BWjt/qJsdIHRFSv7zNkfnpJsS67JbEWHcnUMQKI= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4a11:: with SMTP id m17mr12253348ilf.125.1588524636702; Sun, 03 May 2020 09:50:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <0a13f7e1-61c7-1e78-22bc-a27c15c269e7@yandex.ru> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::131; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-il1-x131.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248719 Archived-At: On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 5:25 PM Dmitry Gutov wrote: > > On 03.05.2020 17:45, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > Years of using Emacs with its superb documentation and elaborate > > facilities to find stuff in that documentation caused me to be more > > demanding, to expect better documentation that is easier to access > > quickly. I might compromise if something like that is not available > > when I'm working with other software, but I certainly don't want to > > give that up when I work on Emacs! And I'm astonished to hear that > > people don't_want_ the documentation we provide and the help commands > > to go with it, and are willing to settle for API completion! > > The main reason the discussion even went that way is because instead of > acknowledging that the user's scenario is valid and the request is > reasonable (that code completion and describe-function's completion will > work easier and faster if function names are more predictable), you > responded with the recommendations to "just use manual". > > Whereas the manual provides a different workflow and doesn't cover all > cases. For instance, it only covers the functions in the core. Maybe not > even all of them. Whereas the aforementioned features work uniformly for > all functions, no matter where defined or by whom. Yes, but isn't a step in reconciling the two workflows that the aforementioned features be extracted from the manual? Instead of going the hardcore, full frontal, bike shedding, never-gonna-happen, "rename all the symbols" route? I mean I like those quick references too, but they're built, probably automatically, for languages with different ways of organizing code, that aren't available in Elisp right now. That doesn't mean we can't have something that approaches their usefulness without raping Lisp in the process. Here are a few practical suggestions: 1. Make C-h O lookup a symbol's definition in the Elisp manual. Is this very hard to do? Seems like it would make a nice parallel to C-h F. 2. Make a Texinfo macro or something like that (completely ignorant here), that extracts the listing of functions and or symbols under a given node. This is the keep-lines example of Phillipe. 3. Make every function C-h f'ed whose provenance in the Elisp manual we can automatically recognize have a link to the manual. 4. Make elisp--xref-backend collect references in the manual (because why not?) 5. Make a "See also" section in the *Help* buffer. Lars' suggestion Jo=C3=A3o