From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: transient Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 02:01:13 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87368npxw4.fsf@bernoul.li> <83y2qezlpd.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv12zjx1.fsf@gnu.org> <20200429101755.GF24737@tuxteam.de> <838sicw4do.fsf@gnu.org> <83zhaqu89z.fsf@gnu.org> <83sggiu2p9.fsf@gnu.org> <83r1w2s9wi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v9leqmss.fsf@gnu.org> <83zhapoz63.fsf@gnu.org> <0a13f7e1-61c7-1e78-22bc-a27c15c269e7@yandex.ru> <83h7wxotix.fsf@gnu.org> <18096f9a-c617-f37b-cdaa-1a6198db2e1c@yandex.ru> <83a72porka.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="107052"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , tomas@tuxteam.de, Stefan Monnier , Richard Stallman , emacs-devel To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 04 03:02:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVPUd-000RkG-Gs for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 03:01:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35066 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVPUc-0002xk-JN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 21:01:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47994) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVPU8-0002WG-JC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 03 May 2020 21:01:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-io1-xd44.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44]:34237) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVPU7-0005tI-H4; Sun, 03 May 2020 21:01:28 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-io1-xd44.google.com with SMTP id f3so10635572ioj.1; Sun, 03 May 2020 18:01:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oos0SwVyibbpHvBD0icK8mBG7wxSAEEyPhM9/cBIUF4=; b=GBEueoZe+R38IBvhbDEgboZzHxm4hrku8RLtDPJnYeTEzsgm1W6C52a5fghYWWqPh7 Uo9cncl3+uVigO2wvnqYLXCd/kplbOue4yjEi3IA2BKeqKzHrn/1BwtrgDo3GU1nwqAH t7DfCzM/cJXfpSXKDiUi5gRsi1Y+8VZUZgzKVueO3MDOoKsfqrrd73Gxew0G6xJ0oRMq uIKOVSMm6NZiO1l0G+ZRKBEekycVkqqVrThygX2bRCpL9sFKA/uvIy3fJGjNWwt0ccMr nPwR+EwVinII2lOuXCZN0pEGBBUS4NgBC4kruHi1kHYSOpJHsQZrbSNQfpX994EXIRYX n0yQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oos0SwVyibbpHvBD0icK8mBG7wxSAEEyPhM9/cBIUF4=; b=i+5fsvbr9Dx11kLx6yVMWQt1QvKrbGxLNXyydy9z4FxTZEViakO9BPCQX4d6K7JKTg Wb/YtmnkuJrpsEJGrhMG7vbKUtRBjgszbtfIozE0DvLeKXmDBjRIuYqsobAMNjYuLUUt cp3X9TcRtPj4t3hXMe9CgttQuLVYDCTagxWfeHYpnGcW7yk5vSyA4lg27paaiuNLOXFn 5N6/M1JsU7VhESUqhuMJnooc1aElnf3gTc5XXO+OM9Oska7Y6hh+f8yCwEBJeNXfy4tb Jq6X/yMDrv9eAZQHpj4pKXhYzrg1e4imclZcGwrNlZGgg023bsEl1H+F2wtR2K8jLp3F /Xnw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0Pua1vuiZm/UWX/IBBFOoqDqCBVxV3Ar0kd0FXnKAT/mXJXRDNleT xYvjJ7dBFGGOiyXmgp99fd9dEv0sJV7T2w+69xY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLdt16pWx5zR6eLtmz+aqccIHoEP4Gwns02YP4CaOLP6yKSlBGhswEcDU3anodjwUcqm+Mwge5Jelf5fiYUSWE= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:9244:: with SMTP id u65mr13589874iod.165.1588554085823; Sun, 03 May 2020 18:01:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d44; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd44.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_EXCESS_BASE64=0.979, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248755 Archived-At: On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 12:47 AM Dmitry Gutov wrote: > > On 03.05.2020 22:49, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: > > We really should work on the completion experience instead of naming. > > If I can't drive straight, I'm not going to twist the road to compensat= e. > I can suggest a different analogy: if the road is twisted and full of > holes, it doesn't matter how fast or reliable your car is. :-) You'll be > late to your destination anyway. ... and I'll stretch it some more: if you build more and more road you'll just be left with cross-roads and no clear path. So ditch the car, get a mountain bike. > I'm sure there's something to improve there, and more capability is > always good, but when the user has to compensate for the API difficulty > with specially-tweaked search terms, that's not too great either. No special tweaking. I mean users type "string" and they don't miss any important string-only function and doesn't get zibity-bob-stringy-string in the first results. Emacs -Q + fido-mode I type C-f string and the only less relevant result i see is lgstring-char, a super specific function from composite.el used multilangual support. _That_ should be renamed composite-lgstring-char. Should the "string" results I get be grouped by arity, destructiveness or some other sub-criteria? Maybe. flex knows nothing about that. But it could if it really is useful. I can even see a completion system where you type "alist" and "assq" appears in the list by considering some source of truth (the manual). > > Reasonably simple > > ML techniques come to mind for relevancy scoring, for example. > Usage-based sorting? I don't like that in general, and it doesn't fit > all situations. Don't see why. But let's for sake of argument say that I agree. What is the problem we're trying to solve here? Is it that there are functions operators missing or just inconsistently named so newbies can't find them? Eli has already shown they are grouped in the manual. But some say newbies don't read manuals. Fine. You contend that newbies use completion. Fine, then mix in info from the manual into the sorting/grouping of completion results. Newbies prefer API lists by topic? Then let's make those pretty lists from the manual, again. Really, let's first try that and have a good look at the results before we decide renaming is the way to go, because that has serious costs in mental overhead. --=20 Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora