On Wed, Dec 21, 2022 at 2:20 PM Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> > From: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>
> > Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2022 14:04:34 +0000
> > Cc: juri@linkov.net, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> >
> >  If we don't preload eldoc, it will be automatically loaded once you do
> >  "emacs -Q".  So it makes no sense not to preload it,
> >
> > But I can't see how ElDoc can be useful when doing lots of
> > things from emacs -Q like adding '--batch -f batch-byte-compile'
> > or '--batch -f elisp-flymake--batch-compile-for-flymake', to name
> >  just two.
> >
> > Even when just emacs -Q is used, which starts up
> > lisp-interaction-mode, which derives from emacs-lisp-mode, it's
> > not unthinkable that ElDoc won't be actually needed at all.
> >
> > So IMO ElDoc should be auto-loaded, but not preloaded.
> > There's also another reason to do so: upgrading ElDoc via
> > M-x package-install (note that it is a :core GNU ELPA package)
> > is, last time I checked, made more difficult, and requires the
> > user to restart Emacs.
>
> If you want to lobby for disabling ElDoc by default, feel free (and
> good luck!).  But that is a different discussion.
>

Yes, that is a prerequisite, of course.  AFAICT there is no reason to
global-eldoc-mode enabled globally (or really, to have that variable
at all). Major modes and minor modes (like elisp-mode or eglot), which
are its clients, and which want to keep the can use add-hook and
have it load just-in-time when (eldoc-mode 1) happens or somesuch.


> Our policy and practice was since long ago that any package which is
> always or almost always loaded at startup without any user say-so,
> should be preloaded, since not doing that makes very little sense.  So
> until and unless we decide to disable ElDoc, it should stay preloaded.
>

Makes sense, of course.  And I think Juri's point is that cl-lib.el is among
those relatively small packages which is "almost always loaded".

João