From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: transient Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 13:02:13 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87368npxw4.fsf@bernoul.li> <87v9ljo5d0.fsf@bernoul.li> <87ftcnxu5m.fsf@bernoul.li> <83y2qezlpd.fsf@gnu.org> <83tv12zjx1.fsf@gnu.org> <20200429101755.GF24737@tuxteam.de> <838sicw4do.fsf@gnu.org> <83zhaqu89z.fsf@gnu.org> <83sggiu2p9.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003cdbd605a4a91267" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="71795"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , tomas@tuxteam.de, Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: Philippe Vaucher Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 02 14:03:04 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqrG-000IVs-M6 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 14:03:02 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53668 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqrF-000307-Jv for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:03:01 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52524) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqqm-0002ag-5M for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:02:32 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqql-00046A-HD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:02:31 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-io1-xd31.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31]:37221) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUqqh-00043B-UU; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:02:28 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-io1-xd31.google.com with SMTP id u11so7406212iow.4; Sat, 02 May 2020 05:02:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=87WDp8+825Gl9S7LxaYrcSbrFoZHQ4HnGBULAzezGEU=; b=glHWZm6d9DEX/wiqHb2YsGrKoSYeMus/CIRuHVV/4p2QyZVgqhJElGHKIGmvcgXd6a B+PmBwswyrWkuKT2EOX4amXEQkNJVTpTFiLU/r4Vxb3RF3uDHoqqSY62K0pLDWh8a13Q eBWJMui9vh1vr+KO9kwpuiI7Q25Y2To/jb1UXBltGpi0kE/4gYyf85U3AtXtvm70izbG NdDDKuA30lFhPcJTqkn0skA0/nOcUm6ZMNkd3D/PJD3n4poLlVHUVOacU9MTLjXsu0gu xOdQbwrp0ibEdBiQUau+WkcAvbkAvXlXzFeYBV9t9qX5BOa7I444WRixwXn6Aclq/6CX h4sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=87WDp8+825Gl9S7LxaYrcSbrFoZHQ4HnGBULAzezGEU=; b=uAyj9nrsvP1x8vXfBXc++7SdGfElE7iDZnU88SFNU/rWHQQ9VSCEbkzIBxNOmHIpIA mzn8AZJrYHmHq4uFLcf98+BluZ0Z02Xstod4Qrw2MW/WoXxklrn1pNdNqpjy6mYpMMwC /TU7MLXFMmqwaV+jJGpBJF6xsDHztZop3RWQHwD0LU1GHKAAtDiAQAZ9ldXCGZczPSWz F/arJ/QPsj+PxlRxUe6haJ/+X7sBZpAQkk1Bl5fjF2VXlMJ6YbKcOvA2qXdlJxuRirCi it8KS1DxNShsxWxwK5GEm2PZy8MqQOLKgW6Qx3PY7mZ5Dm80bFsP5EtaAYVPC0JHPgkw yBug== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubQcvyd/trUYJai6iGrez6TJtFFkyqmj7WFmUmPtbeyCiZ9Y/2H 5+mk6yGF4wNx/hMnL77jjLhhe+3qHQWzccjn5cJet0ENxCk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypLMYOFYdd41QvqNcRnXzxflmAAnJLGLpZu6/hUm5k5krQ4PCdjBlosvyEPz01jS1jM7dx65a0W4e/m82R9+Vtc= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:6a13:: with SMTP id x19mr7809852iog.175.1588420945958; Sat, 02 May 2020 05:02:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd31.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d31 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248410 Archived-At: --0000000000003cdbd605a4a91267 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 12:40 PM Philippe Vaucher wrote: >> >> > Interesting point. I think that could work, but wouldn't it be much easier if the language itself was self-documenting? >> >> Maybe, but that entails changing the language, by definition. And you >> will face resistance because languages are things people kinda grow >> accustomed to. Imagine if I told you the French language should now >> also include all the words of Portuguese, because, you know, they're >> just better. Even worse with macros. It's like I told you not only you >> have to learn Portuguese words, but its grammar, too. > > > Well I propose to add new-style APIs. People can still use the old ones. But they would have to learn to read programs in the new stuff, no? I never said you would be replacing words in French, just adding. To be fair, in programming languages, one has to do that, with libraries. The finer point here is that you're asking for new words for general purpose talk, not new words for a specific new subject, like, say, nuclear frobnicators. You'd certainly need new words for that. > But yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that even adding a new-style > API is too disruptive. If it happens It'll probably live outside of > Emacs in MELPA. > > I'm not sure I like this simplification, but there seem to be two > communities of Emacs users, the "traditional" one and the "github" > one. Both have their perspective on how things should be, and it seems > that both communities have trouble understanding how the other > community function. Yep. It's a simplification. I use GitHub a lot (more than I wanted to). It's the only social network I use, btw, because stuff actually gets built there. But indeed there is a kind of separation (though perhaps less bipolar than you make it appear, and more of a spectrum). I guess I was once in the ruby-cool-kids-web-2.0-quick-google-ftw faction, if you understand what I mean, but I got to learn the old-school ways of the manual and Emacs -Q and now I really like them. In 2006, I had a long painstakingly crafted configuration that made Emacs behave like Eclipse and I'm very happy to have rid myself of it (I do keep the smart C-a though). Nowadays, when I find an awkward part in Emacs I ask myself: if people have been using this for so long, there _must_ be a good reason for this interface. If I don't find an obvious answer, I ask here. And often, things do evolve. But very often too, it was indeed a pretty good interface to start with, I just wasn't aware of it. Why wasn't I aware of it? Well, indeed, Emacs could do a better job of communicating its superior interfaces to the world, but we're outnumbered against all those people that impatiently expect it to behave like the cool VSCode rock star screencasts, just like I once did about Eclipse. Jo=C3=A3o --0000000000003cdbd605a4a91267 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 12:40 PM Philippe Vaucher <philippe.vaucher@gmail.com>= wrote:
>>
>> > Interesting point. I think that could = work, but wouldn't it be much easier if the language itself was self-do= cumenting?
>>
>> Maybe, but that entails changing the lan= guage, by definition.=C2=A0 And you
>> will face resistance becaus= e languages are things people kinda grow
>> accustomed to.=C2=A0 I= magine if I told you the French language should now
>> also includ= e all the words of Portuguese, because, you know, they're
>> j= ust better. Even worse with macros. It's like I told you not only you>> have to learn Portuguese words, but its grammar, too.
>>
> Well I propose to add new-style APIs. People can still u= se the old ones.

But they would have to learn to read p= rograms in the new stuff, no? =C2=A0I
never said you would be replacing = words in French, just adding.

To be fair, in programming languages, = one has to do that, with
libraries.=C2=A0 The finer point here is that y= ou're asking for new words
for general purpose talk, not new wo= rds for a specific new subject,
like, say, nuclear frobnicat= ors.=C2=A0 You'd certainly need new words for
that.
<= /div>
> But yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that even adding a= new-style
> API is too disruptive. If it happens It'll probably = live outside of
> Emacs in MELPA.
>
> I'm not sure I = like this simplification, but there seem to be two
> communities of E= macs users, the "traditional" one and the "github"
&= gt; one. Both have their perspective on how things should be, and it seems<= br>> that both communities have trouble understanding how the other
<= div>> community function.

Yep. It's a simplifica= tion.=C2=A0 I use GitHub a lot (more than I wanted to).
It's the onl= y social network I use, btw, because stuff actually gets
built there.
But indeed there is a kind of separation (though perhaps less bipolar<= br>than you make it appear, and more of a spectrum).=C2=A0 I guess I was on= ce in
the ruby-cool-kids-web-2.0-quick-google-ftw faction, if you unders= tand
what I mean, but I got to learn the old-school ways of the manual a= nd
Emacs -Q and now I really like them.=C2=A0 In 2006, I had a long
p= ainstakingly crafted configuration that made Emacs behave like
Eclipse a= nd I'm very happy to have rid myself of it (I do keep the smart
C-a = though).=C2=A0 Nowadays, when I find an awkward part in Emacs I ask
myse= lf: if people have been using this for so long, there _must_ be a
good r= eason for this interface.=C2=A0 If I don't find an obvious answer, Iask here. And often, things do evolve.=C2=A0 But very often too, it wasindeed a pretty good interface to start with, I just wasn't aware of i= t.
Why wasn't I aware of it?=C2=A0 Well, indeed, Emacs could do a be= tter job of
communicating its superior interfaces to the world, but we&#= 39;re
outnumbered against all those people that impatiently expect it to=
behave like the cool VSCode rock star screencasts, just like I once did=
about Eclipse.

Jo=C3=A3o
--0000000000003cdbd605a4a91267--