From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Renaming eglot -- or at least add an alias? Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2022 21:07:49 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83pmfdduix.fsf@gnu.org> <86sfk7hse3.fsf@gmail.com> <8735c6tq6t.fsf@posteo.net> <87r0zq2uea.fsf@posteo.net> <87mtae2pgb.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006d724305ea12c4df" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8873"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Tim Cross , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Richard Stallman To: Philip Kaludercic Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 02 22:07:51 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1of5Ff-00027H-Az for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2022 22:07:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:45844 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1of5Fe-0007TU-Ap for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2022 16:07:50 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45342) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1of5Eo-0006Sd-Pt for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Oct 2022 16:06:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-oa1-x2d.google.com ([2001:4860:4864:20::2d]:33527) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1of5Em-0003OB-Ta; Sun, 02 Oct 2022 16:06:58 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-oa1-x2d.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-131dda37dddso10014896fac.0; Sun, 02 Oct 2022 13:06:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=vQKO0Dl0ZCHDOakFXsNrFgd9IXVnkMbKPfZ/MkSZOAQ=; b=U85toJAYLprME80Q9TLq5IZJEgIPg8IRtWmmOY2DRB5Wtfuy47Qnj821BT4N9PI21k IKk9Li3zxI07Wk3h9XhUIdoDuD9KcI2UeTSTC3HyiQi7xN0E19Z2xMsesOphngkmGSwm VmufCODXrmFRX63aklVqcw6BJB3MqvIu8prRQATwxAmtRO8p2cv7x5ru1fI6is7k/Spc aGg1xrBkMomu1AYCFeLUUCVAjGT5myZueTt67G/2ygIONaDCJi3E+2RaSI2qG/+qHYNo qwuEFbvFKI1U0pCj7n4iEEYXImChY1gNRW+HDmDz+zy5JkZWRaxYWuc4M38cg0KE7D5f XYwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=vQKO0Dl0ZCHDOakFXsNrFgd9IXVnkMbKPfZ/MkSZOAQ=; b=6O6mFZl9V/K7QbUnfKUrHn/Pi6MsVK0rxfjQFlDEaJHzy3p0oko3lV9hjsfqzvau+9 SKk+xmpiCQc9GJRdfuH+uaXr+N8v/wWyEszUQE1dZgzrMAH5RVvMso8tzrrWb4SG2MQh jln7MPs/hYG40g/65n07D1I0NdRtePst2XjWchpdJHyMFAdaWpXXdvVkbocHMkkuF/TI mXVXW+znN0M7uriZpLTtHwakRM0vMocj4q+i3R+LGisewjJU6y3C+bXeBfbWuYpodlBW //wFN3xR5gtqhM0idegETsKGNyMTwTdkDzeKm+EyRCrsGvBxJpdWB7o2BnqC4bWl9EaN KmFA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2ygp1QLHctUBpeDy4Wk8Jqmk8p1gZ6tpz0HQVHsx8XXUjJpKaS bata6aJhtnbFn7vc6RqlS6Es6HUYOV8S7E82Egc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5rctaJmD/XSkOZ8GLuEvgmWC6EvZrrVUVrzV/EixMLe2NFCya+zlkP+qL3v0kVw2p6dgHzMeKoaM72PVPgrBY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:610c:b0:132:21a0:ad45 with SMTP id s12-20020a056870610c00b0013221a0ad45mr3614720oae.171.1664741209369; Sun, 02 Oct 2022 13:06:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87mtae2pgb.fsf@posteo.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2001:4860:4864:20::2d; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-oa1-x2d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:296706 Archived-At: --0000000000006d724305ea12c4df Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 4:52 PM Philip Kaludercic wrote= : > > Those are all phrases in disguise. Even "hl" is really two things. > > I guess so? What is the other thing? I just meant "hl" is a itself made of "high" and "light", two unbreakable signs. > > One could have come up with a short phrase instead of Eglot, say > > "emacs-very-bueno" or sth like that. That would probably be more intuitive. > > But also probably silly, and easy to miss the target. > I am under the impression that we are talking past one another. Yes, I > agree that "emacs-very-bueno" and "Eglot" are equally opaque, No, the first is not as opaque, it carries more meaning that it's something that enhances Emacs (also tried to carry the meaning of "joke" in my destitute sense of humor). > but why is > that important? I am saying that it might be good to _at the very > least_ add an alias for `eglot-ensure' consisting of only English words. Such words would be "turn-on-eglot-if-its-not-on-yet". > Also, do you have comments on the other suggestions form my previous > message? I don't think the conditions are there to turn Eglot on by default. Languag= e servers are a big variable. They are lots and lots of code we have no control over and there are very many of them. It's not like relying on "ls" or "git". Even if they were, I'm not convinced that's a good idea. *Maybe* Eglot could become more transparent (major modes could using it as a library to do major-mody things) but never entirely invisible, I think. Meaning I think the user should never completely forget that there is a language server connection currently tied to some major modes of a project, and managing those buffers. The command M-x eglot-list-connections doesn't exist yet, but I will add it soon for convenience and debugging purposes and to help reinforce this structure= . I think the popularity of `eglot-ensure`, while convenient, has somewhat erased this sense of structure for some users, which sometimes makes users have unrealistic expectations of how Eglot works, and hard to penetrate bug reports. I recommend M-x eglot instead. > > None of this makes any difference to the fact that Eglot is the best > > name for referring to exactly what Eglot is. > > Tautologically yes, but this is too abstract. Names, signs, are abstract indirections. What's in a name? That which we call Eglot by any other name would just as many bugs I should probably be focusing on. (With apologies to W. Shakespeare) Jo=C3=A3o --0000000000006d724305ea12c4df Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Oct 2, 2022 at 4:52 PM Philip Kaludercic <philipk@posteo.net> wrote:

&= gt; > Those are all phrases in disguise.=C2=A0 Even "hl" is re= ally two things.
>
> I guess so? =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 What is the = other thing?

I just meant "hl" is a itself made of "h= igh" and "light", two unbreakable signs.

> > On= e could have come up with a short phrase instead of Eglot, say
> >= "emacs-very-bueno" or sth like that. That would probably be more= intuitive.
> > But also probably silly, and easy to miss the targ= et.
> I am under the impression that we are talking past one another.= =C2=A0 Yes, I
> agree that "emacs-very-bueno" and "Egl= ot" are equally opaque,

No, the first is not as opaque, it= carries more meaning that it's something
that enhances Emacs= (also tried to carry the meaning of "joke" in my
= destitute sense of humor).

> but why is
> that import= ant?=C2=A0 I am saying that it might be good to _at the very
> least_= add an alias for `eglot-ensure' consisting of only English words.
<= br>Such words would be "turn-on-eglot-if-its-not-on-yet".

= > Also, do you have comments on the other suggestions form my previous> message?

I don't think the conditions are there to t= urn Eglot on by default. Language
servers are a big variable.=C2= =A0 They are lots and lots of code we have no control
over and th= ere are very many of them.=C2=A0 It's not like relying on "ls"= ; or "git".

Even if they were, I'= ;m not convinced that's a good idea. *Maybe* Eglot could
become more transparent (major modes could using it as a library to do
major-mody things) but never entirely invisible, I think. Meani= ng I think the
user should never completely forget that ther= e is a language server
connection currently tied to some maj= or modes of a project, and managing
those buffers.

The command M-x eglot-list-connections doesn't exist ye= t, but I will add it soon
for convenience and debugging purposes = and to help reinforce this structure.

I think = the popularity of `eglot-ensure`, while convenient, has somewhat
=
erased this sense of structure for some users, which sometimes makes u= sers
have unrealistic expectations of how Eglot works, and h= ard to penetrate bug
reports. I recommend M-x eglot instead.
<= /div>
> > None of this makes any difference to the fact that Eglot= is the best
> > name for referring to exactly what Eglot is.
&= gt;
> Tautologically yes, but this is too abstract.

Names, si= gns, are abstract indirections. What's in a name? That which
we= call Eglot by any other name would just as many bugs I should
probably be focusing on.
=C2=A0
(With apologies to W. Shakes= peare)
Jo=C3=A3o --0000000000006d724305ea12c4df--