From: "João Távora" <joaotavora@gmail.com>
To: "Gerd Möllmann" <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 20:11:58 +0000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALDnm50p6rOdX5xgi9_=qfVB83p1ZRJTwEMA4cNKQsr=dsBKWw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <m2ilk1g67g.fsf@Mini.fritz.box>
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Hi Gerd, I'm there one who implemented shorthands in Emacs, and i sure
don't think they are a substitute for CL packages.
They can solve some namespacing problems and they can also offer some
convenience for library writing (see github.com/joaotavora/beardbolt for an
example). But they're infinitely inferior to proper CL packages, especially
with the package-local nickname extension.
It's "what could be arranged" to use a silly portuguesism.
João
On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 06:46 Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com> wrote:
> Since Richard is swamped with mails, I'd like to try and ask some
> questions here.
>
> To start with---I have no problem understanding the shorthands
> mechanism, that's easy enough. (To be honest, I have to admit I don't
> like the idea, for reasons I won't go into here, but that's another
> story. A mechanism will find its uses, I guess :-).
>
> My problem is understanding why anyone would think shorthands are an
> alternative to or substitute for packages. I mean in principle, and
> regardless of packages being Common Lisp packages or any other form of
> module system. I simply can't get it.
>
> So, I guess my first question is: does anyone here think shorthands are
> a substitute got packages, and if so could you please share your thought
> why, and how one would use them for that? If not, it might also be
> helpful to know why not.
>
> And my second question os: Because I don't get it, I'm considering the
> possibility that shorthands are still incomplete, and some features are
> missing that would make it a substitute for a module system. Something
> that's not documented anywhere, apparently. If so, what is it? Or
> where is it described? Or does someone have an idea? You know what I
> mean.
>
> Finally, here's why I don't get the idea:
>
> According to me, shorthands don't address the problem
> packages/modules/namespaces are trying to do deal with _at all_, which
> is programming in the large, which means that large programs with many
> and diverse contributors suffer from name conflicts.
>
> The reason why I think shorthands don't address that problem is pretty
> simple, according to me again: The underlying one obarray can only
> contain one name per symbol at a time. So, whatever name lands in the
> obarray must be unique, as it always was. And this of course leads to
> conflicts. Whether or not the unique name can otherwise be used in
> abbreviated form or not doesn't change anything in this regard.
>
> Or am I going nuts and overlooking the obvious?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2022-11-02 20:11 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 125+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2022-10-30 6:45 Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 8:38 ` tomas
2022-10-30 8:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 9:14 ` tomas
2022-10-30 10:26 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 10:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 11:24 ` Is there a need for a module system Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 11:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 14:03 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 10:40 ` Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 11:06 ` tomas
2022-10-30 11:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 12:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-10-30 13:48 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 14:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-10-31 6:31 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 20:16 ` Helmut Eller
2022-10-31 6:27 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-31 12:13 ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-10-31 12:57 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-31 13:38 ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-10-31 19:53 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-11-11 4:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 9:33 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-13 4:17 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-13 6:41 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03 3:17 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03 8:12 ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-03 3:17 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03 5:33 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03 3:17 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03 8:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-05 16:49 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05 17:04 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-07 7:47 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-07 12:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-08 6:19 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-08 9:54 ` João Távora
2022-11-08 10:35 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-08 15:40 ` João Távora
2022-11-08 15:47 ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-08 22:43 ` João Távora
2022-11-09 6:57 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09 7:23 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11 4:34 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 9:25 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12 3:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-19 22:51 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-11-20 7:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-20 18:55 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-11-20 19:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-22 12:14 ` [External] : " Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 14:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-20 8:08 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12 3:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 19:37 ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-23 7:33 ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-26 23:32 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-27 9:05 ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-30 23:55 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-23 7:42 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-12-14 22:21 ` Richard Stallman
2022-12-15 6:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-12-17 14:53 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 18:01 ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-22 18:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-23 0:55 ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-23 7:49 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-23 12:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-11 4:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 9:35 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11 12:09 ` João Távora
2022-11-11 13:01 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11 14:23 ` João Távora
2022-11-11 15:12 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12 9:17 ` João Távora
2022-11-12 13:00 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12 3:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05 21:47 ` Eduardo Ochs
2022-11-06 9:05 ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-06 11:19 ` João Távora
2022-11-11 4:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 10:09 ` João Távora
2022-11-12 3:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-12 10:11 ` João Távora
2022-11-12 14:36 ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-12 15:20 ` João Távora
2022-11-12 17:32 ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-12 18:45 ` João Távora
2022-11-14 1:03 ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-14 6:33 ` João Távora
2022-11-14 11:41 ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-14 13:41 ` João Távora
2022-11-14 3:13 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 4:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 8:53 ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-11 4:35 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 7:10 ` Helmut Eller
2022-11-01 3:11 ` Ag Ibragimov
2022-11-02 20:11 ` João Távora [this message]
2022-11-03 5:12 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03 20:04 ` A short defense of shorthands.el (but CL packages are still better) (Was: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages) João Távora
2022-11-04 3:28 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05 1:09 ` A short defense of shorthands.el (but CL packages are still better) João Távora
2022-11-07 7:44 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-07 10:18 ` João Távora
2022-11-08 5:02 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-08 5:18 ` João Távora
2022-11-05 3:13 ` Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Richard Stallman
2022-11-06 11:31 ` João Távora
2022-11-08 0:27 ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-08 4:52 ` João Távora
2022-11-08 5:34 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09 4:03 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-09 5:42 ` Yuri Khan
2022-11-09 5:48 ` tomas
2022-11-09 6:02 ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-09 7:15 ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-09 8:34 ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09 10:07 ` Helmut Eller
2022-11-09 18:22 ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-09 4:03 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-09 5:13 ` Matt Armstrong
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-11-07 21:20 Payas Relekar
2022-11-08 9:40 ` João Távora
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