unofficial mirror of emacs-devel@gnu.org 
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: "João Távora" <joaotavora@gmail.com>
To: "Gerd Möllmann" <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 20:11:58 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALDnm50p6rOdX5xgi9_=qfVB83p1ZRJTwEMA4cNKQsr=dsBKWw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <m2ilk1g67g.fsf@Mini.fritz.box>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2623 bytes --]

Hi Gerd, I'm there one who implemented shorthands in Emacs, and i sure
don't think they are a substitute for CL packages.

They can solve some namespacing problems and they can also offer some
convenience for library writing (see github.com/joaotavora/beardbolt for an
example). But they're infinitely inferior to proper CL packages, especially
with the package-local nickname extension.

It's "what could be arranged" to use a silly portuguesism.

João

On Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 06:46 Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since Richard is swamped with mails, I'd like to try and ask some
> questions here.
>
> To start with---I have no problem understanding the shorthands
> mechanism, that's easy enough.  (To be honest, I have to admit I don't
> like the idea, for reasons I won't go into here, but that's another
> story.  A mechanism will find its uses, I guess :-).
>
> My problem is understanding why anyone would think shorthands are an
> alternative to or substitute for packages.  I mean in principle, and
> regardless of packages being Common Lisp packages or any other form of
> module system.  I simply can't get it.
>
> So, I guess my first question is: does anyone here think shorthands are
> a substitute got packages, and if so could you please share your thought
> why, and how one would use them for that?  If not, it might also be
> helpful to know why not.
>
> And my second question os: Because I don't get it, I'm considering the
> possibility that shorthands are still incomplete, and some features are
> missing that would make it a substitute for a module system.  Something
> that's not documented anywhere, apparently.  If so, what is it?  Or
> where is it described?  Or does someone have an idea?  You know what I
> mean.
>
> Finally, here's why I don't get the idea:
>
> According to me, shorthands don't address the problem
> packages/modules/namespaces are trying to do deal with _at all_, which
> is programming in the large, which means that large programs with many
> and diverse contributors suffer from name conflicts.
>
> The reason why I think shorthands don't address that problem is pretty
> simple, according to me again: The underlying one obarray can only
> contain one name per symbol at a time.  So, whatever name lands in the
> obarray must be unique, as it always was.  And this of course leads to
> conflicts.  Whether or not the unique name can otherwise be used in
> abbreviated form or not doesn't change anything in this regard.
>
> Or am I going nuts and overlooking the obvious?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3267 bytes --]

  parent reply	other threads:[~2022-11-02 20:11 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 125+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-10-30  6:45 Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30  8:38 ` tomas
2022-10-30  8:54   ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30  9:14     ` tomas
2022-10-30 10:26       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 10:52         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 11:24           ` Is there a need for a module system Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 11:38             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 14:03               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 10:40       ` Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 11:06         ` tomas
2022-10-30 11:19           ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-10-30 12:50 ` Stefan Monnier
2022-10-30 13:48   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 14:25     ` Stefan Monnier
2022-10-31  6:31       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-30 20:16 ` Helmut Eller
2022-10-31  6:27   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-31 12:13     ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-10-31 12:57       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-10-31 13:38         ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-10-31 19:53         ` Stefan Monnier
2022-11-11  4:35         ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  9:33           ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-13  4:17             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-13  6:41               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03  3:17     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03  8:12       ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-03  3:17     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03  5:33       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03  3:17     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-03  8:46       ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-05 16:49         ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05 17:04           ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-07  7:47             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-07 12:52               ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-08  6:19               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-08  9:54                 ` João Távora
2022-11-08 10:35                   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-08 15:40                     ` João Távora
2022-11-08 15:47                     ` Stefan Kangas
2022-11-08 22:43                       ` João Távora
2022-11-09  6:57                         ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09  7:23                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11  4:34                     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  9:25                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12  3:35                         ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-19 22:51                           ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-11-20  7:18                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-20 18:55                               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2022-11-20 19:02                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-22 12:14                                 ` [External] : " Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 14:22                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-20  8:08                             ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12  3:35                         ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 19:37                         ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-23  7:33                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-26 23:32                             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-27  9:05                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-30 23:55                                 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-23  7:42                           ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-12-14 22:21                             ` Richard Stallman
2022-12-15  6:47                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-12-17 14:53                                 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-22 18:01                       ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-22 18:44                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-23  0:55                           ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-23  7:49                             ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-23 12:18                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-11-11  4:35                 ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  9:35                   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11 12:09                     ` João Távora
2022-11-11 13:01                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-11 14:23                         ` João Távora
2022-11-11 15:12                           ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12  9:17                             ` João Távora
2022-11-12 13:00                               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-12  3:35                     ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05 21:47           ` Eduardo Ochs
2022-11-06  9:05           ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-06 11:19             ` João Távora
2022-11-11  4:35               ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11 10:09                 ` João Távora
2022-11-12  3:35                   ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-12 10:11                     ` João Távora
2022-11-12 14:36                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-12 15:20                         ` João Távora
2022-11-12 17:32                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-12 18:45                             ` João Távora
2022-11-14  1:03                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-14  6:33                                 ` João Távora
2022-11-14 11:41                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2022-11-14 13:41                                     ` João Távora
2022-11-14  3:13                             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  4:35             ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  8:53               ` Michael Albinus
2022-11-11  4:35   ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-11  7:10     ` Helmut Eller
2022-11-01  3:11 ` Ag Ibragimov
2022-11-02 20:11 ` João Távora [this message]
2022-11-03  5:12   ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-03 20:04     ` A short defense of shorthands.el (but CL packages are still better) (Was: Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages) João Távora
2022-11-04  3:28       ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-05  1:09         ` A short defense of shorthands.el (but CL packages are still better) João Távora
2022-11-07  7:44           ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-07 10:18             ` João Távora
2022-11-08  5:02               ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-08  5:18                 ` João Távora
2022-11-05  3:13     ` Help sought understanding shorthands wrt modules/packages Richard Stallman
2022-11-06 11:31       ` João Távora
2022-11-08  0:27         ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-08  4:52           ` João Távora
2022-11-08  5:34             ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09  4:03           ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-09  5:42             ` Yuri Khan
2022-11-09  5:48               ` tomas
2022-11-09  6:02             ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-09  7:15               ` Juanma Barranquero
2022-11-09  8:34               ` Gerd Möllmann
2022-11-09 10:07             ` Helmut Eller
2022-11-09 18:22               ` Matt Armstrong
2022-11-09  4:03           ` Richard Stallman
2022-11-09  5:13             ` Matt Armstrong
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-11-07 21:20 Payas Relekar
2022-11-08  9:40 ` João Távora

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to='CALDnm50p6rOdX5xgi9_=qfVB83p1ZRJTwEMA4cNKQsr=dsBKWw@mail.gmail.com' \
    --to=joaotavora@gmail.com \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=gerd.moellmann@gmail.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).