From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 10:27:11 +0100 Message-ID: References: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7003"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Gregory Heytings , Bob Newell , emacs-devel To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 08 11:28:34 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kQSDx-0001iG-9T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 11:28:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58076 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQSDw-0002yE-AF for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 05:28:32 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52732) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQSCw-0002Em-64 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 05:27:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-io1-xd30.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30]:34855) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kQSCt-0005HJ-9B; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 05:27:29 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-io1-xd30.google.com with SMTP id k6so5507808ior.2; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 02:27:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7dByGJdJTJYr6/WkmVEQAeGouVSN7gK/AshD62PCeT8=; b=RINEgnsDauZ/euHMIVdg6l6i8IcBP8bemiUm4wEpbX8f9sDTaQxr/UwMpwUZvbv64q ldK03WzX8XSC97GGM7iOKDH3ZHZYqQi+IS0TZWHUc/e5NwbsZ5tPTR2mMCihKo1Mg19W 6Mh4KfHb6p8xVsNmqJlZEg3N0U6XGQ8KztQ9au9m5ibwMFsPZJkqfDgSzcDRO2ddvDuN smBg5T6pnmXGfjdCK4j3cSc2bV+mx6sWbCYE4QIdy1gc4acTiHMIsyRnKZv63c1NG8j3 5EC+9Dixs+HTqNForJeuZGfh9SE1hxMhUZRYBtw8IUVV8JhN4RalAIg6B7A5Zi6+Y2kp CzdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7dByGJdJTJYr6/WkmVEQAeGouVSN7gK/AshD62PCeT8=; b=MmCjY3a0P7etZVOT9RUT8+jMO3I63uGrqLaKQYRmfLzFk6ff+H58x93jEyn6wK9TBq itElppquUKp+QtppZiHt0ZHmVlA4j0avnGI1j+1KnmxC5GHPwBZ1n1g6C7Xv8+AhCA0q 7tbo6lwg41ZbFlmTVwTh5WwW/Sv7MPuCuuiY/q4abNb5S9wiuyxxNoxhlK+aECxQjcCf uI9eJ+G8OlYzAvUoYFjzkkMWOwizfNW4APQnim8pTwQhr8lq59RXPvero/OseeNrIcdE 68OWNT3iL+q9tS/u194E7nBn8I+Isq+R2Kb12x7KnEhOyiPrFQG2CkTGVOt12Sj/bsSp 26Tw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530oiEl8WxHYwpfK93c9BR0X/sVfuI4KeD4/nh6/SW1MtaM0pVhw SyYdfwwxCOzMDA/WMPOzyXFQQ8xp7kv+zA9oHy82HBI4w3o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwuiLdS/ANLyCDHd+JY1+5IUX4bpr3ObmPAOPPJ80hp2dv2/mSEKY/wT8ipJR5iqyhBekk2ktg9P5AvYweuLQo= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:8d8c:: with SMTP id b12mr5384117ioj.138.1602149244558; Thu, 08 Oct 2020 02:27:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::d30; envelope-from=joaotavora@gmail.com; helo=mail-io1-xd30.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257204 Archived-At: On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:42 AM Richard Stallman wrote: > > I didn't even distinguish correctly between Emacs and Emacs Lisp > > manuals, > > Can you suggest a way to clarify that? Not really. Tip-the-day in the welcome screen? A clippy, type thing? So many ideas sophisticated ideas here, but I guess at a certain point we just want the following sentence to be presented in front of the eyes of impatient, not particularly methodical, programmers like I was back then: "Hey, did you know Emacs has manuals? They're really good! There's THIS manual that teaches how to use Emacs, its keys and stuff, and there THIS manual which teaches how to program for Emacs, so you can make your own extensions." People starting off with Emacs are not married to it like we mostly are. They want it to stay out of their way so they can go about their task. There should be a way to slowly call attention to the superior qualities of the editor, even if the strategy is to textually say: "take our word for it, spend 10 minutes doing this fun tutorial". And then deliver, of course, if the tutorial is utterly boring or useless that user is probably lost forever. Jo=C3=A3o